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I started a new blog, rather than replying to Gwen's latest, because I had some info that perhaps some of us haven't read.
I've referenced this pdf before, but I didn't put in a full addy, making it difficult to access. It is: www.gires.org/assets/ATypical_Gender_Development.pdf My impression is that this paper either states or implies that a sense of which gender we are is inborn (is part of the brain) in nearly everybody. The fact that a gender sense can be the opposite of the individuals gonadal sex, is explained as happening in a way similar to other intersex or ambiguous genital features with which an individual might be born. I accept the line of reasoning in this paper. To me, it seems like the best, most scientific, explanation of transgenderism. This puts me in the "nature" camp in the nature vs nurture discussion. I don't believe that for a male phenotype person, being raised as a girl for some years or having a very dysfunctional family has anything to do with being transgendered. I'm sure that being brutalized and/or not loved and nurtured can lead to depression, low self worth, suicide, etc. But even these disorders are somewhat influenced by one's genetics.
I was saddened by Gwen's sentence: < Eventually, humans will develop some more tolerance or at least be able to identify people like me before birth and terminate the pregnancy. > Her next post seemed much more optimistic to me. I've felt like that in the past. Also, I had this saying: I think I could have had a more normal, productive life if I only had chronic depression or if I only was transsexual, but with both and the people and situations that I sort of randomly encountered, I mentally fell apart. ( I've been on U.S. social security disability for mental illness since mid '94)
Back to Gwen's eventually, the thread of repairing people, and stories of TG children being allowed to transition. I hope, with present NMRI technology and a lot more research, small, apparently TG children can be brain-scanned and whether they have a male or a female brain can be determined. Before they have too much contact with the outside world (like school) they can dress and be helped to act properly, not that they should be forced into rigid gender roles. They can have their dominant sex hormone(s) suppressed then get proper sex hormones to have a correct gender puberty. For m2fs, at least, once the doctors are sure that the child's brain sex is appropriate and living as a girl is going well, srs could be done much earlier, maybe 12 or 13, so the child would have nothing to hide/would be seen as typical (not atypical) 8) If this system will be in place, TSs will be virtually invisible so (hopefully) no one would have a reason to care, or to force abortions.
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Atypical gender development
Dear, there is something wrong with the link, though I was able to get to the page using google. Hmmmmmm
I would not bother sharing this with my family; they being of the very conservative christian stock that I raised them to be. It seems that religion has erased any ability for independent thought.
Many Blessings
Gwen
Nature and brain-scans
I'm firmly in the Nature camp on this one too. My family growing up may have been more "Roseanne" than "Cosby," but it was always full of love and I have a hard time thinking of any way it might have been considered "dysfunctional." My parents didn't enforce any gender stereotypes--except clothes I suppose, though I imagine if I'd kicked up a fuss about that they might have gone along with it--but it's not like I didn't get plenty of that from the outside world, so it's not as if I was raised in some gender-neutral vacuum without a clear idea of what was expected from me. In spite of that I developed a gender identity of "female." I very clearly remember the first time I was ever given a form to fill out and had to decide whether to check "M" or "F." I was about to check "F" without thinking about it, but then I realized how that would probably go over, and decided it'd be best to just check "M" like they wanted me to. So my own personal experience completely invalidates Dr. Zucker's theories of gender identity development (though likely he'd claim I was lying).
As far as brain-scans go, I hope too that will someday be possible, but for now MRI scans don't pick up small enough details (quite) to distinguish between the "male-identifying" and "female-identifying" versions of the brain structures in question. It's theoretically possible but the technology isn't quite there yet. Maybe in ten years it will be. I know for me it wouldn't have been so much about being seen as "typical"--I was raised to not give a lot of value to being "typical"--as it would have been about being seen as I saw myself, and feeling like I belonged in my own body. As a child there was only pretty much that one part that felt like it didn't "fit," but as I went through puberty all of it became more and more "ill-fitting" and I remember often looking at girls wistfully and with more than a touch of envy, thinking how much more "comfortable" it would feel to have a body like that. I still do that, actually.
Personally I feel very strongly that any "therapy" (or surgery, medication, etc.) intended to change someone's mind without their consent (or even with their consent, if they've been talked, coerced, or manipulated into giving that consent) is no better than brainwashing, and to do it to a child is unforgivable.
Why are we still looking for something to blame?
Why can't we just accept that we are as we are and get on with life. this constant justification to pass the responsibility on to something else, seems to be disempowering us rather than the legitimisation some seem to seek.
Once I stopped looking for causes, I actually got on and took responsibility and control of my life. Navel gazing is all very well, but with the exception of academic study, does little for the individual. Accept you are driven, and enjoy the ride!
Angharad
Angharad
I think the blame game is just part of our journey
I am getting to the point where I'm ready to move forward.I've been out to my family for years and have come up with reason's for why I think I turned out the way I am.I've found they really don't matter in getting the family to be supportive and instead just being confident that this is the right thing and being firm in that it is going to happen so get over it works best.I don't believe what is the cause really benifits us as it doesn't change the fact we still have to deal with having it.As usual Angharad you have posted a most knowledgable reply.Amy
Genetic background?
As far as I have been able to find scientific evidence of a genetic background to transsexualism comes from the doctorial thesis for Mikael Landén. He found an overwhelming high occurrence of genetic variation in the subgroup male- to-female transsexual persons. The material did only contained enough participants in the group that had experienced traces of cross-gender activities in early life (before school-age). Other groups of transsexualism were too few to allow any statistical calculations. The variation was in the number of non-informatin parts in the genes betwen the acrtive sites. I do not have his thesis at hand right now but I think there were 17 or 18 TS persons and about 40 person that had no sign of transsexualism. Non in the control-group had this variation.
Personal comments: When I found out this about transsexualism I was relieved as I got a rational explanation to the phenomenon.
Ginnie
GinnieG
Nature Vs. Nurture
Things are bound to go wrong when nurturing versus nature. Forced feminization of a male child would be a prime example of nurture versus nature. Forced masculinization of a TG child born male is also a prime example.
Nurturing can be defined as rasing a child to be an accepted member of the community. Zucker goes awry when he accepts as fact that transgendered children can never be accepted by society as adults. Homosexuals were "never accepted" by society not that many years ago and now have acheived almost total acceptance.
To me a more adept definition of nurture is to help grow or develop. I'm a big fan of B. F. Skinner and the "theories" of positive reinforcement. There is little to gain through Zuckers methods of negative development. His methods will inevitably lead to guilt and shame and the corresponding mental problems.
We don't even have to discuss homosexuality. Zuckers reminds me of the teachers who at one time tried to correct the left-handed writers to be properly using their right hands. How many children were turned off to education by those well-intended jackasses who were fixing problems that really didn't exist.
If you haven't signed the petition to have Zucker taken off that committee, you need to get after it.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Where is that petition?
I joined the Yahoo group (Gender_ID_Coalition), but haven't had a chance to wade through the 600+ messages to figure out where to go to actually sign the petition.