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I am a long time reader. I've been reading ever since I was able to hold a book on my own. My appetite for reading is voracious. At a very young age I taught myself to read and never stopped. By the time I was 9 years old I was reading at a college level of understanding.
I only started writing the stories in my head well after becoming an adult. I don't publish many of them (I don't think they are all that good), let alone get around to finishing all of those ideas. At the moment I've got 40 ideas in various stages of completeness, from just a few bullet points/outline up to major effort at writing the story and being close to finished (on one). I'm also not all that quick with my writing either. To give you a hint at how slow I can be, the oldest file that currently exists was opened in 2002.
However, my point for this blog entry is this.
While I honestly cannot be considered an author, especially here where I've got nothing published, my understanding of how to write a story well is quite good. I'd even say excellent. Why? Because I READ. I understand what makes a story a pleasure to follow along with as I immerse myself into the world the author is creating. How the syntax of words utilized, the structure of the sentences, the tense of the time frame being presented, all combine to make a smooth and enjoyable ride for the reader.
Does this mean that if/when I put out my very first story on this site that it is going to blow everyone away and make angels sing praises? Hell no. It's probably going to be rough around the edges still and need a bit of work to even make me happy. But it's not going to a piece of crap, it should have a decent bit of polish on it. At least I hope so.
What it does mean though is that as a reader I DO have a very good understanding of what should work and what should not. To be brutally honest, and this statement covers every platform or website that I've ever read a story on, I see some stories that get published and I wonder how the author let such a rotten dog out in public. And I read the comments for those stories that praise the author for writing the best story the commentor has ever read and I think 'Are you kidding me? There are so many errors of word usage let alone simple spelling, poor sentence structure, switching back and forth between present and past tense, and going from first to second to third person view point changes that my head is spinning.'
I know all of this because I have learned what works by reading as much as I do. It doesn't take writing a story of any length to suddenly figure out these things. And I'm sure that I am not the only one. The people who only read can have just as much knowledgeable input for an author as those who also write their own tales. Telling someone that their input is worthless because they don't or haven't written something is to be honest a bunch of bullshit. Readers can be and are just as knowledgeable as any author, or even more so going by the quality of some stories I've encountered.
Don't discount or blow off someone based on their assumed experience simply because they don't have a body of work to point to. As long as the commentator is being polite and trying to give some reasonable feedback on a story be polite back to them. It means that they have found something in the tale that they like and hope to provide some level of improvement to make it just that tiny bit better.
Comments
Agreeing and disagreeing at the same time
I guess I agree with Ms MacMurchie. When she said,
I totally agree.
The sense of entitlement some people feel just because they were able to post a story sometimes gives them an inflated sense of their own value, and, depending on where they currently are, emotionally speaking, they can be any of three kinds of people: (1) the generous and benevolent experienced writer who is eager to mentor newbies; (2) the supercilious writer who is either so busy with his writing or so above it all that he can't be bothered to "come down to Earth" and speak to mere mortals, or is quite condescending when he does, feeling that he can say anything and do anything; and (3) the down-to-Earth person where the fact he has written something is inconsequential or immaterial to how he interacts with others.
The third type of writer is not necessarily a good kind of person - he might be a total asshole or he might not, but his behavior is his default persona, and whether he is a writer or not doesn't figure into his behavior.
For me, this is the best kind of writer, because he interacts with people without artifice, without presumptions and without an agenda.
But, if ever there's a writer here who's like #2, he should be called out for his... antisocial behavior.
Everyone's opinions should be respected, I think - whether one agrees with someone else or not, that person should at least be heard and not be disrespected, insulted, ridiculed or be made to feel small.
As for #1, in a site like ours, where most, if not all the writers, are amateur writers, and definitely not top-flight published writers, those that act like top-flight writers are probably deluded (lol), but at least are harmless. And though their words might not be grounded in reality, they might occassionally provide some good points, and it might be worth it to give their words some consideration.
I would like to believe I'm a #3, but I have this fear that I might be a #1. And that would be incredibly embarrassing...
Ms MacMurchie also said,
I totally agree with that.
I personally feel that there is no call for people to be rude to others, but there are times when one might feel sorely provoked. I suppose it would depend on one's degree of tolerance up to when one is able to hold off being equally rude to such a person. Personally, I'm afraid my tolerance level might not be too high, but I'm constantly trying to raise my tolerance level. Being in BCTS is good practice for this. Heheheheh.
As to Ms MacMurchie's pov that, if one reads enough, one would understand of how to write a story well, I think I would disagree. Rather, if one reads enough, one can develop a good ability to identify good stories, but not necessarily know how to write the story itself. Sure, one would know the mechanics of writing - proper grammar, composition techniques, et cetera - but that doesn't mean one would know how to write a story.
I think that would be akin to saying, if one looked at paintings long enough, one will know how to paint.
In order for someone to learn to write, one needs to practice writing. If one doesn't, one will not know how to write.
But, regardless if one writes or one just reads, everyone is entitled to speak their opinion, to be listened to and to be respected.
Just an opinion, of course.
click here to read all of my blogs,
click here to read my stories in BCTS, and
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I Have to Disagree
If someone is a dick to me in a comment, there's NO way in hell I'm going to be polite to them in response to it. I might not do it in a public forum like them but I damn sure will let them know what I think of them privately. There is a thin line between constructive criticism and real criticism here on this site.
Proofreading
I realise that there are differences between different versions of english (e.g. British/American) and that not everyone has english as their first language. Leona makes some very good points on sentence structure and story flow and I'd like to add a few of my own, some of which I have come across in books by best selling authors who's publishing houses have professional editors at their disposal.
• Long dialogues with no indication of who is saying what - long dialogues can get confusing so the occasional hint as to who is speaking can help.
• Wrong names - sometimes the author may have changed a character name or just used the wrong one - there is nothing like a 'who's Jenny?' thought to derail a good read.
• Wrong words - I suspect that many of these originate with the ever present auto-correct, and are therefore easily missed, while others may be due to different usages in different countries.
Please consider finding someone to proofread for you, or if that is not possible then perhaps wait a day or two and proofread the story yourself before publishing.
Another Agree-And-Disagree comment
I'm again agreeing and disagreeing, this time to WR's comment. Or perhaps I'm not disagreeing, per se, but adding my own points.
Firstly, I agree with WR's four main points, namely:
(1) Yes, indeed, proofreading is very important, and should be done, though I have some comments;
(2) Yes, indeed, confusion as to who is speaking can be problematic, but an "occasional hint" as to who is speaking isn't sufficient - there's a methodology to it;
(3) Yes, indeed, wrongly referring to characters is quite confusing, but that is probably an effect of incomplete preparation; and
(4) Yes, indeed, use of the wrong words are problematic, but though auto-correct can be the culprit, there are more errors that don't originate from auto-correct.
About point #1 - it is, indeed good if one can have their manuscripts proofread, and, as WR has mentioned, publishing houses have their own proofreaders. But I guess the pov I have is that the proofreader must be a reliable proofreader - if the proofreader is a fellow amateur writer/reader, the proofreading quality would probably be hit-and-miss at best. But then, who can afford a professional proofreader? I think, for amateurs like all of us, we shouldn't rely on fellow amateurs to proofread, or, at the very least, don't refer to them as "proofreaders" but more "beta readers" - that's because expectations might become unreasonably high.
I guess, what I'm saying is that self-proofreading might be the better ticket, and then have a third-party "test-read" it.
About point #2 - identifying who is speaking in the narrative by having "occasional hints" as to who is speaking does not go far enough. There's a method called the "Binary Conversation," as well as the subset method of "Non-binary Conversation." And it goes like this:
- - - - - -
The Concept of Binary Conversations
When you break a narration and someone else starts narrating/talking, it may be necessary to identify who is talking. That means, you have to go, like –
She said, “blah blah blah blah….”
He said, “blah blah blah blah….”
She then said, “But blah blah blah blah….”
He then said, “well, blah blah blah blah….”
That’s a bit irritating, right?
One therefore needs to think of a dialogue between characters in terms of a binary discussion: that there are two people/entities talking to each other and taking turns. That’s because, a discussion is always between two entities, i.e. binary.
And because it’s just people taking turns, the writer doesn’t need to keep on saying, he said… she said… he said… she said…
The writer just needs to identify the two parties talking at the start. So that means he just says, “he said” and “she said” once at the beginning. And so long that they are taking turns talking, then you’d be fine and the reader will be able to follow who is talking without the he said… she said… he said… she said…
However, if the Ping-Pong back-and-forth rhythm is broken, then the writer needs to interject “he said/she said” again to be able to identify who’s speaking now. And he’ll need to continue identifying who’s speaking until the binary Ping-Pong rhythm gets back on track, and the writer can then drop the he said/she said again.
.
Non-Binary Conversations
All conversations are always binary. Someone talking, and another one (or more than one) listening. And conversations are always in turns. Sure, some people can talk at once but it won’t be a conversation since the person/persons listening can’t listen to them simultaneously. Stylistically, the writer can showcase the chaos of non-binary conversations. But this chaos will eventually quiet down and devolve back to a binary situation – someone talking and another listening. Just like in real life.
And until the discussion devolves back to the binary conversation, the writer will therefore have to keep on identifying who’s speaking until she gets the back-and-forth Ping-Pong rhythm back.
- - - - - -
About point #3 - Referring to a character by the wrong name is really problematic, but this kind of problem usually crops up by not making an outline of one's story beforehand, and just writing it as one goes along. Sure, even if one makes an outline, this kind of error can still crop up but, I guarantee, such errors will be more like exceptions.
There have been a lot of talk about the necessity of an outline here in BCTS, and if one should even make an outline, so this comment might not be the proper venue to talk about it. But if one has a beta reader, this kind of error can also be minimized.
About point #4 - yes, using the wrong word is not great, and yep, this can be because of auto-correct. But here's the thing - if your spelling was correct in the first place, your phone or tablet or laptop wouldn't have needed to auto-correct. This is only an opinion, but I think the problem is more because of two things: one - the English language is so full of homonyms, homophones, homographs and heteronyms (you know - words that sound similar, or sound the same but are spelled differently, or spelled the same but have different meanings, and so forth), and is, in fact, only second to Estonian in the number of homonym words et cetera; two most English-speaking people begin learning the language via "phonetic spelling" and "phonetic reading" (https://www.readingrockets.org/teaching/reading101-course/to...), and this practice carries over to adulthood. Therefore, most don't really consult the dictionary or other similar reference, and just rely on "sounding out" or syllabicating a word.
And, as to the different "versions" of English, I think that's fine so long as one remains consistent.
So, yes, auto-correct is one of the culprits, but it's more because of our habit of phonetic spelling and so forth. And it comes from the fact that English-speaking people read less now. Did you know, in 2004, roughly 28 percent of Americans age 15 and older read for pleasure on a given day, and in 2018, the figure was down to 19 percent, and is still becoming lower?
In any case, self-proofreading and having a beta reader will probably cure this kind of problem.
So... I guess that's it. Again, as I usually end my super-long comments, I end this one by again saying these are all just opinions of mine, and everyone is welcome to agree or disagree, but let's be civil, and, more importantly, let's not be "exciteable" and fight about it.
'kay?
click here to read all of my blogs,
click here to read my stories in BCTS, and
click here to see my profile & know more about me.
Good and bad stories
We all have differing opinions on what constitutes a good or a bad story. There must come a point with all readers where the effort required to read something exceeds the enjoyment derived from it. In the case of any particular writer some readers will continue to read their work, and others will reach the point where for them that particular writer 'isn't worth the effort'. So they stop reading their stories. If the writing is poor enough it is self limiting as to its readership. There is no need for unkind words. I wouldn't presume to advise such a writer in a PM since I don't consider myself qualified so to do.
Regards,
Eolwaen
Eolwaen
Very eloquently said!
You are correct, everyone has their preferences in what they want to read. If the plot and story telling are good enough, I forget about bad spelling and punctuation even when it makes the story's flow a little choppy. Now when the spelling, punctuation etc. make the story unreadable, of course I stop reading that story.
There's only a couple of things in a story that will stop me from continuing reading stories from a writer. And only when the writer seems to always have those in every story and every chapter.
Eolwaen as far as you being qualified to comment. You like everyone else has an opinion, and have just as much right as everyone else to state it :)
We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
Thank you
For expounding on my points so eloquently.
Self proofreading
Self proofreading is problematic. I have stories the I wrote years ago, first published on my long defunct site, and posted here and on Fictionmania. I know that I've carefully and meticulously proofread and spell checked and grammar checked them. More than once with two different versions of Word. Yet, I reread them and I'm appalled at the errors I find. Bad punctuation, homonyms misused, wrong tense of verbs, wrong words all together and just plain bad spelling.
That problem I'm sure is because when I proofed them before, I knew what it was supposed to say so with my reading speed, I just read by the errors. The solution is unacceptable... wait six months after finishing a story to proof your own work.
I think beta readers have a better opportunity to catch errors than the author. The problem there is we have no way to test beta readers to see if their English is good enough to catch the error; you just take your chances. No offense intended to anyone.
I consider myself to be pretty good at it, and I'm a compulsive editor. My habit, from dial-up days, is to download the story and read it in my word processor. Said WP highlights spelling and grammar it doesn't like and I feel compelled to correct the errors. But, I can't give it cart blanch. It's not infallible. If you make every correction suggested, you'd really need a professional proofreader to straighten it out.
Even with what I consider my "expertise" I'd hate to pass myself off as a professional. Far be it from me to argue with any authors that they really must change anything in their story. In the end, good or bad, it's the authors story.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
It's true
I have actually made my living at various times as a proofreader, copy editor or editor and it ain't easy to do on your own stuff. I have various tricks I use but one of the most valuable is to let my friends read it and mark it up for me. And I am qualified to claim to be a professional. :)
So, if you want your story to get the best reception you probably can, have someone else read and mark up your deathless prose. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Self proofreading
I have to agree with all of the statements about self proofreading being like a blind person looking for a light switch. I can't count the number of times I've put a story to rest for a month or more, gone back and read it for editing purposes and fixed all the mistakes I catch. I finally kick it out somewhere for it to be seen by others and when I come back at some later date to simply review it I STILL find more mistakes. Drives me nuts. One of the small reasons I don't publish more of my stuff.
- Leona
Absolutely and Utterly Amazed!!!
Reading recents blogs (not only this) with associated comments I'm absolutely and utterly amazed that anyone, anyone at all, would have the deathdefying courage, or alternatively the nausiating gall, to post anything at all here, be it a story or a comment ;)
Taking cover
Bru
PS
I posted on this thread only because it's the most recent one regarding this general topic
I hope
I hope that Erin's rule 3 is still working for me.
So True, Bru
I've been writing for BC since Bill Clinton was in orifice. Not once has Erin sent me payment for any of my over one hundred stories. My guess is most of the authors here are non-professional.
The game seems to be -- if the reader enjoys my stories enough to finish them, I probably did okay.
If I finish a story, I think the author did good.
I always finish your stories, Bru, because I want to see your final gyrations. Some work (for me) and others don't. Seems to me even Mark Twain had a few stories that were less than classics.
A simple rule might be -- this is not a writing class. Some people who are writing here are trying to get better. But the majority are simply trying to deal with life; and quite a few are wounded doves who can't take any more knocks.
If your comment starts veering toward criticism, you might consider sending it by PM or forgetting about it. If the grammar offends you, you could offer to edit their next story.
If you don't like someone's writing . . . quit reading their stories. There are thousands of stories on BC; and you will find someone who fits your needs.
If you're looking for Shakespeare or Dickens, don't read my stories, I'm just Jill Schmoo and write mainly for my personal pleasure.
The facts are on the sides of the Jill Schmoos. Dozens of highly successful writers spent years being told they weren't good enough to be published (Stephen King for one). Your opinion about a story is 100% valid - for you. Singe a newbie's wings and they may never try again . . . and that's just plain wrong.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
since Bill Clinton was in orifice
I gotta ask: Was that a deliberate pun? Though I do think He was misbehaving before Big Closet.
I think
that most of the recent threads about writing have been aimed a helping those who want to improve their writing. This one seems to more a complaint about those who appear to be satisfied with the status quo of their work. I figure it's their story and if they are satisfied then that's all that matters. I can ignore misspellings, homophones, erratic punctuation, wrong words and shifting tenses if the story is good enough but I will admit that the story has to be VERY good when it has all of those in almost every paragraph.
Ignoring bad writing
Case in point:
Hunger Games
Great story; so everyone who read told me. So I purchased a copy for my Nook and started reading. I quit reading before the end of chapter three. After a time, still hearing that it was a great story from those who read it, I tried again. Once again, I stopped reading before the end of chapter three.
I found the writing style to be too disjointed. It just didn't flow for me and there was an insufficient hook to make me want to wade trough all of that and keep going. However I tried reading it a third time, stopped and finally on the fourth try, I forced myself to keep reading and finally got hooked on the story.
After that I can agree; great story. But the writer could use a little help in writing style and story line development. It made a much better movie than it did a book. My not so humble opinion.
The point I want to make here is that not all great stories are well written and sometimes we do ourselves a disservice in not wading through some of the mistakes and embracing the story and forgetting that the author is writing hack. They still may be telling a great story in spite of all the problems with reading it.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
"Writing a story" isn't one thing
People write for various reasons, especially on a site like this. I too have seen pieces here and elsewhere that have terrible misspellings, poor construction, no plot or development, and so on, but I know that the writer is writing because they want to be a part of this community. They want to share and to say, "I'm here too! I'm like you!" and to somehow put into words the joy or pain of being a girl.
Writing can be an attempt to be cute and fun.
Writing can be catharsis, cleaning out the pipes, an exorcism, a scream -- and it isn't always pretty or syntactically correct.
To write something really good, you have to write a lot of really bad stuff first. That's just how the process works. I've been embarrassed in looking back at things I've written and put up here, but I was writing as well as I could write back then. I've learned since then, and I do go back to try to fix things, but it's difficult and time consuming. I appreciate so much that this site was here to let me learn by doing.
It's surprising, too, to see that some immensely popular authors, like Agatha Christie or Micky Spillane -- who are among the most widely translated authors -- are not very good writers. They are good at telling stories, though. I know that I don't have all the tools in my toolbox -- that there are other writers who are more inventive and funny, others who are better at descriptive prose or character development, but I do what I can. We can always find people better or worse than ourselves.
Criticism can be helpful. Readers have often pointed out impossibilities or errors in things I've written, and I've been grateful. However, criticism, too, is an art that has to be learned, and sometimes comments can be so hard and hurtful that they prevent a writer from writing at all.
Here more than anywhere else, I think we have to keep in mind who we are, collectively, and what brought us here.
Kaleigh
How to write
Kaleigh is right. It's like several writers have said before:
"Writing is easy. You just sit in front of the keyboard and open a vein."
Writing is hard. Even writing comments is hard.
I've been providing a place for our little corner of the literary world to exist in for 19 years and 9 months, and that ain't easy, either.
But the welcome mat is still out. This is still intended as "A friendly place to read, write and discuss Transgender Fiction."
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.