Maryanne Peters - Thief

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I am upset. Really upset.
I have been accused of the worst .. the very worst. Plagiarism. Even the word sound slimy. What an awful thing!

This is what somebody (who seems to be to have a very apt nom-de-plume) posted on Fictionmania's notice board:
"Posted by efindumb® on 07/24/2020 at 04:35:58
Subject: Re: Accusations of Plagiarism
This has irked me for a long time. There is no link to the original work, your entire story is based off of the work of someone else. You include the original caption and that person's name but you don't include where you got the caption from and you don't even bother to actually expand the caption beyond adding one or two sentences more.
You really are plagiarising, without realizing that you are doing it. Sorry, but you never give proper credit. Those captioners work their butts off creating those captions and you take them, use them to "inspire you" but don't give them the credit you should!
You have some nerve complaining about that. You churn out a lot of "stories" but without the hard work of those people you wouldn't have 1/10th of the "inspiration" as you would.
Give people credit, proper credit!"

My reply was:
"Hi Efindumb
I am not sure if your nom de plume has been chosen to demand this, but plagiarism is "the representation of another author's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work. Plagiarism is considered academic dishonesty and a breach of journalistic ethics".
When credit is given, that is not plagiarism.
When somebody reproduces the text and says "I was inspired by this" that is the opposite of plagiarism.
Now, is my work original? Take the last posting "Lucky Little Ashley". Becky and I have worked together on stuff and I helped her a little with the story she has been posting on FM. Here she has written a simple exchange between two transwomen, and I am trying to build the characters. I believe that what I wrote first person is very different, with new thoughts and expressions.
The response has been positive (with the exception of the Latin speaker who prompted this thread) and I will go on to write more.
I work my butt off and I have a body of work to prove that. And not just these little tales, but full short stories and the occasional novelette. I suggest that you have a look.
But there is the suggestion that I should provide more links to cap writers and that I will do.
In the meantime please reconsider the accusation that you have made. It is wrong and hurtful, and in a community of writers, very bad form indeed.
Maryanne Peters"

But he did not stop there - moving to strident all caps in places:
"Subject: Re: Accusations of Plagiarism
You see...this is what you don't get. I've ready Becky's work for years. If she has posted here and she worked with you, then WHERE IS HER CREDIT? Where is a link to her works? Where is the acknowledgement to her that she helped you?
There isn't any. You simply say "inspired by" but DON'T GIVE HER ACTUAL CREDIT. None of the actual "inspirations" get it. I highly doubt that you have actually worked with ANY of them, much less ALL of them.
You have gotten positive responses, but if people actually KNEW that you STOLE THE WORK OF OTHERS to get your "inspiration" they wouldn't be so nice in their reviews. And frankly, a large number of positive reception is just nice replies because they feel compelled to say something.
As has been pointed out to me multiple times by "better" writers, quantity doesn't equate to quality. Don't you dare throw your number of works out at me when the total number of words written doesn't hold a candle to the words I post in a single story post. Don't toss that out because your work is nothing like others for a reason- it's easy to churn out a story when someone else has done all of the actual hard work!
But hey- quantity over quality. Those of us who try and actually make something of our stories must be doing something wrong when we can just grab someone's caption, expand it, then claim that it's original instead of spending days and weeks trying to type a 15-20,000 word story from scratch."

I had to reply:
"I will not stoop to make reference to your nom de plume again, because it seems to me that your accusation cannot be put down to ignorance. I see real spite in your words.
As a writer you should know how serious the allegation of plagiarism is. I invite you to consider what I have top say and withdraw it.
I say it again, plagiarism is taking the work of others and passing it off as your own. What I have done is take a caption, attribute it and use it as inspiration for my own words. This is the very opposite of plagiarism. I am saying: "I read that and it inspired me to write this". If you can see any of this that is pretending to be that, I challenge you to identify it.
You use all caps to accuse me of theft. Please withdraw these words unless you can point to a single instance in all my 300+ postings where I have passed off the words of others as my own.
What is inspired by? "Arising from some external creative impulse" - I read, I write. Many would not refer to their source. I respect other writers so I do.
Now, in a Trumpian double-down, you accuse me of lying about working with Becky and other cap writers. I helped her and she has thanked me online, but I have written to Becky and asked her to enter the fray.
Where I help other writers I seem no credit for it. I thought that this was the nature of our community. You seemed to have proved me wrong.
If Becky chooses not to enter this (I would not blame her) you should send me your email and I would be happy to send you exchanges with confidences respected.
If your criticism is that my attribution could be better, I have taken that on board. I will do better. But to say there is no attribution or credit given at all, is plainly wrong.
What is your motive? Are you not getting enough positive reviews? In my experience reviewers don't write in because they are "feel compelled to say something". I think that the praise I receive is hard won.
Clearly your write novellas. I write short stories. It is a different literary tradition. Try reading some.
My little cap-inspired-tales are not even that - some are just musings perhaps, but if they inspire joy or excitement, or anything, that makes them art.
I am no plagiarist. I am no thief.
I respect you as a writer. Please do me the same courtesy."

I am only doing this because I will not accept being called a thief. I have never stolen a word from anybody. When I get an inspiration (which is not words that I then claim are mine) I refer to it as somebody else's and give credit where I can. Plenty don't

What irks me particularly is that I think that my work is (on the whole) very original. I try to make it so.

This whole thing has shaken me. I really don't know how to deal with it satisfactorily.

Any ideas?

Maryanne

Comments

your

Maddy Bell's picture

accuser has a history of mental instability and is best ignored.


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Madeline Anafrid Bell

That was not need.

There is no need to go there at any time, with anyone. That is just plain rude.

Truth

Unfortunately Maddy's statement is as close to the truth as you can get without speaking to efindumb in person, IMHO.

Just read their postings (and rantings) here on BCTS and see for yourself. Ignoring those rants and accusations is the best way to deal with that kind of posting, for both parties.

That person couldn't seem to get along on here

Frank's picture

Many times they posted blogs complaining about this or that or people on here being mean to them. Which of course isn't how this site functions. Many times they threatened to take their ball and go home, then would come back, and then do it again.

Seems like you stated your POV well, and have nothing to prove to them

Hugs

Frank

What memes?

I watched those links, very informative.

From what I discovered, using pictures, video, and music is only covered under the fair use laws when they are used in a critical review of that material.

A few years ago one of our local radio stations asked a very high profile singer if they could make a parody of one of that singers songs for a local charity event. The singer was all for it and being a good acquaintance of the radio host, even volunteered to sing the parody at the charity event. Come to find out the singer, who had made that song a #1 hit, did not own the copyright to it and the plans fell through due to the cost of licensing.

So if Maryanne used a picture (as many of us do) in stories, that was not obtained from a site like Pexel, or others where you can obtain royalty free images, or a license to use the picture was obtained, then yes the picture was used illegally. And no amount of wording releases the person illegally using the material from the possibility of being sued for copyright infringement.

Now as for the rest of this thread, I still haven't seen a link to the original content Maryanne posted on Fictionmania, so I can't give my opinion.

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

Copyright and Parody

Check out the link sent in by Crash which I have just viewed.
Copyright is a mess and a veritable feast for lawyers.
But these caps are probably unlawful use of images anyway.
This is not the point - it is about what to do when you are accused of stealing the work of others.
I am innocent!
Thank you everybody, for believing me.
Now, what about a comment on today's story?
Maryanne

Memes generally are a gray

Rose's picture

Memes generally are a gray area, but it gives publicity for people, so they generally don't mind. I've seen several memes that I made myself floating about the internet, and I've been happy that they are being used by others. Kinda cool to see.

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Hugs!
Rosemary

Interesting problem

Although to be fair to both sides of the argument, without a link to the original story and comments over on Fictionmania it's very hard to comment on who is right or wrong.

I attempted to find it there but apparently you use a different name on fictionmania?

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

You Haven't Posted Those Snippets Here

joannebarbarella's picture

Maryanne,
As far as I am aware you haven't posted any of those little "inspired by" pieces here. All I have seen is/are your short stories with about 5K words and I see no signs of plagiarism. Plagiarism is when a writer lifts someone else's words and ideas holus-bolus without permission or acknowledgement. In my view nobody can accuse you of that. Your latest piece here is an ideal refutation of your antagonist's allegations. "America's Princess" is posted with full permission of Laika and with her active co-operation. It is a different take on her story which has been reposted in juxtaposition to yours and with her full support.

There's your evidence and I suggest you ignore the person making the accusations. There's more than one bee in that bonnet.

I do have a complaint though. Every time I think I've got a new story idea you post one that beats me to it and what makes it worse is that you write it better than I could!

I think that the reception you have had here shows that the BC audience appreciates you wholeheartedly.

Keep doing what you have been doing.

I've Read Several of Your Inspired By Shorts on FM

I generally enjoy them. My impression is that you always make an attribution of some sort & explain what the attribution is lacking when there is some uncertainty. I'm not sure providing links is going to work all that well as I can't recall seeing links in stories over there. You could probably put in the address info that people can cut and paste if they want to look at the caption where you found it if an actual link can't be inserted. As for the allegation that you present the work as your own; You post the original caption with an attribution right at the top of your short story. The words of the original are right there in the caption. You may sometimes use some or even all of the material as part of your expanded story, but you're hardly hiding the source or claiming it as your own.

The attribution of inspiration

No I don't post those little things here, as I want to keep BC for stories, but there is one here called "All Grown Out" which was a 70 word cap that led to a 1,400 word illustrated story.
I give credit for inspiration even when it was really only the image that got me thinking, because that seems right. I have not filed links on FM because I have always thought that they were hostile to that, but in deference to this person I have undertaken to try.
Maryanne

You know

You know, I've been inspired by shorts a few times before myself. It can be an enlightening experience but trying to get a name and telephone number URL to give proper online attribution is an angle I hadn't thought of.

- Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs and anywhere else you can get it. - Lulu Martine

Oh Boy

Maryanne -

Your stories use a wide variety of voices and a compendium of knowledge.

This is NOT a community where plagiarism goes un-noted.

Once or twice a week someone will ask for help finding a story by giving a synopsis. Usually that synopsis is vague. Yet - almost every time someone will steer them to the right story and author.

If you were guilty of plagiarism you would've been called out on it immediately. We're a community that jealously guards against plagiarism.

If you were guilty of some violation of copyright law -- we've all been there. You said you would take steps to correct and that's the end of that.

The rest is personalities.

This should have been done in PMs. (Maybe my note should be in PMs.)

Bottomline - there's no denying your abilities and creativity.

Jill

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Our Community

Thank you Jill,
I really feel a part of this, and the warmth of.
I hate plagiarism, and not just because I write. The idea of somebody taking praise for another's work just grates.
That is why the allegation made me go right over the top, a little.
Maryanne

I must be missing something

Rose's picture

I must be missing something here. In the original accusation, it clearly says that you mention the person's name that you got it from. That is definitely giving credit, unless the accuser wants a complete bibliography. I haven't written a term paper for almost thirty years, but I guess maybe to avoid accusations, I should include the all important bibliography from now on. Dang! Where did I learn about a bibliography. Oh yeah!

Mrs. Dearborne, 6th grade teacher, Chugiak Elementary School, Chugiak Alaska, 1980.

Hopefully, that's close enough.

I'm sorry, efindumb. I did enjoy your Winnissimitt (sp?) tales while they were here, and read most of them before you pulled them, but I think you're overreacting here. If the name was given, then the writer was acknowledged. Shoot, I don't think I should have to reference something I've heard word of mouth, do you? I could have listed every teacher I ever had in Elementary school as a bibliographic reference for every word I utilized in my comment. That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? I'm not sure what memes, or captions you're referring to, but most things on the internet can be found on multiple sites. Facebook is only one of them. Half the time you don't even know where the original picture is, because it's a link from another site. If you were to say what site you pulled it from it wouldn't necessarily be where it actually was, so they are the ones plagiarising. Just something to think about.

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Hugs!
Rosemary

Internet and digital age

Beverly Colleen's picture

There have been copyright issues since even before the birth of the internet. Remember Napster and music industry? They just changed the names and call them torrents or whatever. The internet broke copyrights. Easy access to millions, yet policing would require billions of dollars to keep track of let alone enforce. There will always be copyright arguments. Those will never go away. Are they all true or just rants? probably both.

While i am not an author or even a website procurator anymore, I do exercise my creative outlets within the digital mediums provided my multi media entertainment. I create my works and build my worlds for my own self interest. If others are inspired and improve upon my creations, then I am happy and have done my job. I am sure there are those who have "copy&paste" and tried to call them my own, but beyond politely pointing out the ethics of them doing so and asking them nicely to please reconsider, there is not much you can do without acting like a perpetulant child and only raising your BP. Basically the online world we live in is current generations wild west. Generally unlawful and wild while trying to make a living as good people of the web. We wont see law and policies that are enforcible for decades probably at this point, if ever. Freedoms allowed due to the internet are still older value honor systems placed on a bleeding edge digital world. There is no real right or wrong except that which people who are self aware cling to. We are living in a new world that changes way way faster than we can keep up.

I dont know about you but im getting too old to run that far and that fast....

Beverly Colleen

**********
I am a leaf on the wind, but someone turned the fan off.

Inspiring

Lily Rasputin's picture

Maryanne, I have been reading your works for years and have found you to be a wonderful, talented, and inspiring author. (I guess that makes me a "sycophant".) Don't let the angry rantings of someone who is not even your peer get you down.

XOXOXO

Samantha

"All that we see or seem, Is but a dream within a dream." Edgar Allen Poe

The accusations you've received are indeed hurtful

... but unfortunately anyone as successful as you will probably get more of them. You can tell how much you are loved and respected via the above comments though. Your two responses to your accuser are quite adequate; if the moaning continues, consider the textbook treatment for dealing with trolls: starve (don't feed) them.

Hugz! - **Sigh**

Words may be false and full of art;
Sighs are the natural language of the heart.
-Thomas Shadwell

Thank You

Thank you to everybody for your support in this.
Earlier I did reach out to the complaining party by PM suggesting that we take it off line, but I did not get a reply.
I have posted a message on the other site today suggesting that literary harikiri might be a little too drastic.
My point was really about maintaining my (hoped) reputation for originality against that dreadful accusation.
But the whole debate on ideas, copyright and the internet destroying the bag that once held the cat, has been stimulating.
I suppose the good thing is that it has reaffirmed to me that this is a community, and I feel part of it.
Hugs to all...
Maryanne

You are a member of this

Rose's picture

You are a member of this community, yes. Sadly, efindumb decided to remove themself, and I'm sorry they don't seem to care enough to settle this silently.

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Hugs!
Rosemary

Their screen name told me a lot.

Maryanne,

I am a reader, non member here so I'm not enmeshed in any way with anyone here; a guest at best or, to some, a party crasher. So I don't have an ax to grind with anyone.

When I first saw the name efindumb, my first response was that this is someone who is either deliberately being self deprecating as a joke, or someone whose life has been one of taunting, deprecation and/ or abuse. Why else would anyone call themself "f'ing dumb"- even phonetically?

Over time, reading the exchanges between this individual and others, it became clear to me that efindumb is a deeply troubled individual who, once a position is assumed, is unable to consider any other possibilities or realities. I have, in my real life, had interactions/ acquaintanceships/ friendships with similar individuals. The one constant I found was the individuals all created ever escalating situations that result in the loss of interpersonal relationships, isolation and proclamations of victimhood.

I'm not a mental health professional, I've never played one on TV- or even read the script at an audition, so I can't definitively speak to what is going on with efindumb, other than it is eerily similar to what I've experienced with a few others. What I can say is that the pain individuals inflict in such situations is always painful, cuts to the core and the person attacked will have a hard time in the moment seeing the human tragedy that is their attacker.

I hope in time you will find it in your heart to forgive efindumb for the hurt they inflicted upon you. Forgiveness only means you are relinquishing your right to revenge; it doesn't mean you forget, nor does it mean you have to allow the transgressor any where near you in the real world or on the net; forgiveness is all about healing the wound that was inflicted upon you and getting rid of toxic anger. With forgiveness hopefully, over time, you will be able to see efindumb's attacks and irrationality for what they are, see the human tragedy that is efindumb's life and have some sympathy for their plight.

Forgiveness

Aren't people interesting? One of the joys in writing fiction is creating characters and letting them loose to do what they do, and think what they think, however irrational that might be ... because people are people.
When Efindumb took their ball and stormed off, some on FM asked her to come back, including Elektra.
This is what I posted: "Can I just agree with Elektra and ask you [Efindumb] to continue writing? I would not like to think that our exchange caused somebody who writes for the pleasure of it, and then publishes for the pleasure of others, just to stop dead. Maryanne Peters"
I mean it, but that does not mean that I forgive this person for an accusation that is so horrendous for any author it deserves the epithet "unforgivable".
But people are people. And their stories ought to be heard. And we can analyze and guess what turmoil lies behind their words. And that is art - is it not?
Have you worked me out yet?
Maryanne

Forgiveness is a process.

Any wound, whether physical or psychological, has a healing process that varies with the severity of the wound and the underlying condition of the injured party. So, as I said in my earlier post, perhaps in time forgiveness may be possible; instant forgiveness isn't something to be expected in a situation like the one you are in with efindumb. The reason is simple, whether their decision to attack you in the manner in which it happened was conscious or unconscious, the attack was intentionally vicious, brutal and personal. If you were able to forgive them this quickly i would first check you for signs of stigmata and, if I found none, declare you a candidate for sainthood.

Generally, it is my preference not to know (in the real world or on-line) authors whose works I enjoy; when I worked in a bookstore and was expected to be part of the post reading signing dinner party, I had the misfortune to discover that- while most authors were ordinary, decent people with a literary talent- a few authors whose works I really liked were rather loathsome individuals.

Unless something an author writes in a story or blog post either triggers me at a core level or piques my curiosity in an insatiable manner, I do my best to not even attempt to work out who they are as individuals. I take it as a given that the vast majority of people on this site have depths of pain, suffering, abuse, rejection, discrimination and suffering in their past and present, so unless something that can't be ignored crops up, I take the Big Closet authors' collective woundedness as a given and avoid analysis.

So Maryanne, while your stories often resonate with my past and present, I will continue to enjoy your stories without working out who you are.