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"You know, just because you can edit doesn't mean you should."
(Tom Servo from Mystery Science Theater 3000)  Just a blog about thinking positive (see the starting blog that started it all at http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/blog/18755/greener-other-side ) |
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AUTHOR'S NOTE REGARDNG THIS BLOG: This is a reconstructed re-post of a blog originally posted 10:24am on Thursday, March 25, 2010, but was accidentally removed from the site approximately six hours later by one of the administrators, including all comments attached to the post. The blog, including the attached comments, are hereby reposted. The formatting and footers of these reposts may be different from the first post, but the text is exactly as in the original: Contents of this re-posted blog and the re-posted comments are courtesy of Holly Hart and her archives, and the accuracy of the text may be confirmed with Ms Hart.
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The post was originally written as a tongue-in-cheek humorous post, but it was not taken as such by many of the readers, perhaps because of a poor choice in selecting a quote. Because of which, the humor and meaning of the post was not properly communicated, and in fact, to many readers, the sense and meaning of the post was the reverse. I had posted a comment wherein I tried to explain this six hours after posting, but the blog and the comments were accidentally erased less than five minutes after I posted my comment. I am re-posting this so that those who took offense but did not have a chance to read my comment-of-explanation may read it this time. The truth of the matter is, I have the highest regard for our editors, in general, and Ms Hart in particular.
Again, my apologies.
Following is the text of the post.
A few days ago, I wrote a little blog about my own little problems, and about how one has to push on regardless of how seemingly insurmountable one's current problems are, to push on regardless 'cause there is a light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. And in the meantime, we need to learn to see how green the grass is while we do.
Those who struggle with questions about their sexuality (and several of us here in the site continue to) struggle with something that touches all aspects of their lives. I have sought my own answer to this. It is not the perfect answer, but at least I can see the end of the road. What is left to travel is still difficult, but it gives me hope now, ‘cause, so long as I stay on the path, I will see it end. Eventually.
It has been more than four years since I started on this path, and the journey is still continuing. For now, I have to find a way to endure the traps and pitfalls that are still in my mind and my universe, and to take heart at the good things that I can find around me. Sometimes these are hard to find. Sometimes these are not.
When I became a member of BCTS, I had an opportunity to try my hand at writing — which was a way to expunge some of my demons, and to indulge in a bit of wishful thinking. I am so jazzed that there are some people here that seem to like my cra… ummm, stuff.
But as anyone who has tried to endure my chicken scratchings know, my proficiency in the mechanics of writing is far from perfect. It has been suggested, often, that I could use some help in this department.
I have so far turned down such offers of help because any fixes applied to my stuff will, at best, be partial fixes, because none of my current stories are finished, yet. But more than that, I guess I am like many first-time writers that feel very proprietary towards my writing. I’m sure that feeling will go away in time, though.
Still, there was one person who sent a PM and made the same offer. I don’t know how it happened, but Holly was able to convince me, and, amazingly, she finished proofing and editing of all six installments of my first-posted story. It’s a thorough piece of editing, indeed, and it’s a little unnerving to see all the markups in the MS-Word source. If we didn’t have access to computers and had to rely on printed manuscripts, in my mind, my printed story would be peppered with corrections, crossed-out words, scribbled notes, and would be positively dripping with red ink… Seems that classic piece of advice about needing a second pair of eyes, and that hackneyed saying about not being able to see the forest because of the trees, and that axiom that declares one knows less than what one thinks she does are ALL true.
Looking at her work was an eye-opener. I felt so… well, I’m sure my pride will recover… And it seems my writing waterloo was in recognizing whether to use the word “passed” instead of “past,” and vice versa. To paraphrase Tom Servo, from Mystery Science Theater: just because I think I can edit doesn't mean I should, 'coz clearly others can do it better.
Now how does this turn into looking at the greener side of life? Well, you have to ask, would anyone be willing to slog through 127,893 words looking for grammatical errors? (Yes, the number is correct - I checked). Secondly, would you find a person who is so unassuming that she would say I can take her “suggestions” or not, when maybe half a dozen others took offense that I did not accept their corrections? Holly was one who slogged through it all, and offered her suggestions without any expectations.
I won’t be using Holly’s work for now, but as soon as I finish my story, I will be sure to take in the result of all of her hard work for the final-proof posting of the story.
Thanks, Holly. Appreciate the help.
Lunch is over. Time to get back to work. Maybe it’s my turn now to correct some of the reports that my people wrote. Talk about looking at the greener side of life…
Comments
Re-posted Comments
To see Bobbie's stories in BCTS, click this link: http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/book/14775/roberta-j-cabot
To see Bobbie's "Working Girl" blogs, click this link: http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/book/19261/working-girl-blogs
To see ALL of Bobbie's blogposts, click this link: http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/blog/bobbie-c
If I Edited For You
Submitted by Angela Rasch on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 11:35am.
I didn't offer and I didn't edit for you . . . but had I, and then read this blog, I would be steaming.
What was the point?
Did you pay Holly? I'm sure I know the answer to that, but I just wonder what it was about her kindness to you that caused you to write such a blog.
Here's the thing. If you entered all of Holly's edits and sent the manuscript on to me I could, and probably would, have just as many further comments and edits. As I've demonstrated here in the past by editing excerpts of John Grisham's work, editing is as much an art as a science. Both Holly and I will only edit for those who acknowledge that they have the final say on their work. Both of us want the author to have total ownership of the work and would feel awful if they thought of us as a co-writer.
The overall tone of your blog is okay and not offensive, but the quote that you use to draw attention to your blog is highly debasing.
There are several of us who edit for quite a number of people. We do it because we want to give back to a community that has meant a lot to us. We also do it because it's a bit like working a crossword puzzle. You might not find it fun to go through a writer's mind and try to bring their ideas to readers in a form they can digest, but we do.
If you meant to say "thank you" to Holly, you missed the boat.
If you meant to cast dispersion on all editors, you hit the nail on the head.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Editing, it depends upon one's point of view.
Submitted by Gwen Brown on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 1:03pm.
Angela, maybe you don't remember a time when you could not write well. Maybe you had good experinces all the way through school. And if you did, I am happy for you and I do think that your writing is excellent.
On the other hand, I had really bad experiences with school. Nothing was ever diagnosed, my god it was the 50's and a sound lashing was the solution to all problems. I just could not sit still, and my nose was always running. It was difficult to concentrate.
I did not learn my Multiplication Tables until after High School, after 3 years in the Army, and after I was married. My writing was cryptic and filled with idioms and slang. It was when my wife went back to school around 1990 to get her RN degree, that I took my first writing classes. I only took the classes, the same as hers, to help her pass, since her writing was really really bad and she could not spell to boot!
Well, she did pass and today runs one of Kaiser's clinics in Oregon. Not being an educator, she fascinates me. I last saw her 5 years ago, and she was still a bad writer, but she is an astonishingly good negotiator, leader, and wonderful nurse, with a great bedside manner.
I still remember the time that she got pissed at a persian Doctor named Rahanabaad, who is probably long dead now, and used a huge hypodermic to fill his office seat with water. giggle. Please pardon my little diversion. Now back to the subject. :)
I think that you edited one of my stories once, and you were not impressed. Looking back, I can easily see that my writing is about ideas, and catharsis, not literature. I'd probably still be a disappointment and still can't diagram sentences. But thank you for trying with me.
Holly has done quite a bit of editing for me, and has been really helpful. One of my problems, and it truely is my problem,, is that she understands Word oh so much better than I do, and can command the editing tools in it in great symphony. For me, to get a story back in that format is like really frightening and I get into real anxiety. So, I partially understand what bobbie-c is saying.
Poor Holly has tried to explain it to me, but those who experience anxiety that can sometimes be almost paralising, know that I will have to work my way to rationality on my own. :)
I have the second chapter of "Hala" in the works, and a brand new story called, "The Toy" in the works and will submit them to Holly subject to her time constraints. Still, when I press the send key and my beloved child goes off into the night, I will still feel a lot of anxiousness about it. Again, that is my problem.
Many Blessings
Gwen
Just because you can edit...
Submitted by stanman63 on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 12:35pm.
When I edit, I leave it up to the author to use my suggestions. I have both corrected grammar and offered story ideas, but I mostly simply polish a story for the author. By the way, I like your use of puictures, and that's me that you se in my comment.
Stanman
May Your Light Forever Shine
Editing
Submitted by littlerocksilver on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 12:35pm.
When I first got up the nerve to post something I had created on this site, I was pleased with what I had written; however, I was acutely embarrassed by the plethora of errors (I'm sure I made several in just the first sentence. I actually posted this in Word and found two misspelled words.) I had made in punctuation and word usage. I didn't know at first how to ask for help, but some nice readers pointed out some really bad editing on my part. Thankfully, Holly stepped in and has given me some great guidance. I find that I seldom have to disagree with what she has suggested, and I eagerly import her suggestions into my documents.
Above all, I want the reading of my stories to be an enjoyable experience, and if better editing makes the story more readable, that's the way I want it. Obviously, there are some authors here and elsewhere, who don't care enough about what they write to even go through it one time before posting. I don't understand that. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing it well. For many of us, the only impression we have is what we read here. Sometimes, that impression is not very good. It’s not the content, there’s no disputing taste. It’s the sloppy writing. Why someone would post what they did in the shape it was in is beyond me.
Thank you, Holly.
Portia
Writing
Submitted by Angela Rasch on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 12:55pm.
There's a great new book on the market called "59 Seconds" that talks about using writing to find happiness. The author cites several studies that supports his assertion.
While some authors, I'm one of them, would agree with you that making the experience a good one for the readers is a primary goal -- other authors are primarily writing for personal reasons and don't take the reader into great consideration. That's entirely okay. Those authors just shouldn't expect the readers to enjoy what they write. I constantly edit my old stories, years after they've been posted.
Errors are inevitable. Even the sharpest eyed editor will miss typos. Authors will change character names and forget who is whom. They will inadvertently attribute dialogue to the wrong character. These kind of things happen all the time. It's human. But any kind of error will jar the reader to some extent and will jeopardize the suspended disbelief.
Yet -- if an author wants to post "as is" that is their right and doesn't necessarily take away from their enjoyment of having written and posted something.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Writing
Submitted by BethW on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 3:17pm.
Robert Heinlein once wrote something along the lines of: "writing isn't a social disease but should be done privately with the door locked. Be sure to wash your hands afterwards."*
Writing is a terribly personal thing. After all, you are in an intimate relationship with the story. You're the mother the father the sister the brother, everything that is the story depends on you! Then you go and leave your baby with an EDITOR!
THEY go and raise your baby from toddler to the point where it is ready to go out into the world. Then your child comes back to you.
NOW if they are a good editor (as Holly MOST CERTAINLY IS!!) you'll recognize your child, maybe you'll correct some if its manners or put new clothes on it. Still at the end of the day, your child is still your child.
Then there are others (the DARK editors). They take your child teach 'em to smoke and drink whiskey, swear and go in directions that YOU as a parent never would have.
Now here's the really important thing. When they come back, you can always rip 'em in two and start over with your precious little story. The Big Bad Editor's changes are allowed only if you allow them.
As for me. I've rushed a story or two to posting without the editing process. They frankly needed work but I wanted to make a deadline. I never never should have let those little stories go out into the big bad world. Because frankly, I screwed up in several ways. I'm sending one back through editing and it will be a very much more well behaved little story when it's done.
Holly is one of three editors I use. They all do different things for me. She is as Gwen pointed out a maestro of the tools available in Word. I know, with Holly, that when I send her a story it's going to come back with notes and corrections that I almost always follow. The reason? She's not as close to the story and can objectively tell me where I've goofed. (Don't you just love technical jargon? Goofed). She catches grammatical errors that even Word misses. She keeps the continuity correct. She's just a d****d good editor.
And, like any GOOD editor, she recognizes that the author has the last word. Back to Heinlein. In his papers there are frequent incidents where he disagreed with an editor. Some stories, including "Stranger in a Strange Land" were published several years after writing due to the changes editor's demanded. Eventually it was published. I've read "Stranger in a Strange Land" in it's original and in the more common heavily edited versions and the story remains virtually unchanged, the editor's demanded changes due to the mores of the time. Still, in every case Heinlein remained in control.
If you choose to not use an editor, fine. If you want the best story you can write, consider using one. Remember, You remain in control. One of Holly's most endearing qualities, which also makes her damned good is she's doing this as a labor of love. She doesn't demand you list her as editor - though you'd be a fool to omit it.
I should shut up now. Everyone's gonna run to Holly now and she won't have time for me - Argh. There are many good editor's out there. The trick is finding one you can work with.
((putting soap box away))
I do hope this is helpful, but I've probably made a muck of it.
Beth
*No, I know that's not exact, I'm just to lazy to go look it up in "Time Enough For Love" Still, I think I've given the essence of his statement.
That only goes to show you
Submitted by Arecee on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 3:21pm.
I understand what Bobbi is trying to say and if her intro had been edited it would have read differently. It probably would have said something like this "You know, just because I can edit doesn't mean I should". After posting my first stories over at FM I learned quickly that I needed an editor. My stories were interesting but turned the readers off because of so many grammatical errors.I have had a number of editors over the years, and have been satisfied with all. I've had arguements with British edits because my wording was changed from American English to British English, but we worked it out. I've also learned that if I don't like what an editor is doing I say so. Unfortunately I've also listened to editors that have told me the story has to be changed so much that it was no longer my story. When that happens, I lose interest, fold up the tent and move on. Writing is fun for me, but when it becomes a chore, why should I bother? Arecee
That's right
Submitted by bobbie-c on Thu, 2010/03/25 - 4:15pm.
Indeed, Arecee is right - that's what I meant.
After reading Angela's scathing comments, I edited the text of my blogpost more than an hour ago. If anyone noticed, Two of the changed paragraphs now read as follows:
- - - - -
"Looking at her work was an eye-opener. I felt so... well, I'm sure my pride will recover. And it seems my writing waterloo was in recognizing whether to use the word passed instead of past, and vice versa. To paraphrase Tom Servo, from Mystery Science Theater: just because I think I can edit doesn't mean I should, 'coz clearly others can do it better."
"Now how does this turn into looking at the greener side of life? Well, you have to ask, would anyone be willing to slog through 127,893 words looking for grammatical errors? (Yes, the number is correct - I checked). Secondly, would you find a person who is so unassuming that she would say I can take her suggestions or not, when maybe half a dozen others took offense that I did not accept their corrections? Holly was one who slogged through it all, and offered her suggestions without any expectations."
- - - - -
I am afraid I have contracted foot-in-mouth disease (as in, I really did put my foot in it this time).
Hope people can forgive an amateur writer who doesn't choose her words well.
It'll be quite difficult to find the greener side of life just now, let me tell you.
- Bobbie C
4 years for you in the propah clothing?
There is this TG woman who lives relatively near me who used to infuriate and abuse me until I either screamed at her or cried. She once told me that I would not understand woman hood until I had been living for 7 years. She always pushed me around and I hated her!!
I am pushing 6 years now, and in the quiet of the day, sitting at my desk wondering if Holly is done moving yet, so she can get my latest effort delivered and the umbelical cord cut, I can now see that the woman, Ashley, was right. Of course, she does not need me to tell her that, she knew it all the time.
I'll take a Technical Report and strip the fluff out of it any day and do a fine job. Isn't it odd that I am now trying to learn to put it back in.
Much peace
Khaduuj
Re-post: "Just because you can edit doesn't mean you should"
Thanks for reposting. Me, I have enjoyed your blogs and stories.
May Your Light Forever Shine
May Your Light Forever Shine
Everyone Muffs
something they were trying to say now and then. Some people tend to jump on those who do without asking is that what you really meant? It's a normal human reaction to defending those one respects and cares about. I'm glad this seems to be resolved though. I like you blogs and your works.
I'd love to see another episode of Danny.
Hint, Hint:)
Bailey
Bailey Summers
One Muff to Another -- Uhmmm, Bailey Summers
When things get taken out of contexts do you really think it is fair to criticize me for unwarranted piling on? The original blog has been changed. I stand by my remarks in regard to what was originally stated. Had the blog been written as it is now, I probably wouldn't have said a thing.
You're right about defending those one respects -- and I respect Holly. Those lucky enough to have her as an editor should realize and appreciate her talent.
Even those who think they're wonderful writers would be wise to run their work by a good editor once in a while to gain perspective.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I was just
stating that things can happen in a posting that you didn't mean to. There are sometimes we don't see what we write as others might see them. I've done it. I've also jumped into a topic voicing my opinion when the context or content behooved me to, and more than once unneededly I'll probably do it again to with my mouth.
I was trying to talk in generalities about what happened. I was not trying to say anything regarding you specifically. I'm sorry that you took it as such. You're generally even handed about things, which is why I didn't however I've had the displeasure of meeting others who are and do jump on somebody about misunderstandings in posts.
Bailey Summers
I See, Bailey
Words are not as powerful as feelings. Thanks for taking a moment to explain.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Editing? It was...
a pretty good time, it wasn't all that pretty....NO...that's not it. It was a fairly acceptable time, it wasn't all that good, come to think it...NO...that's not it...It was merely adequate, it was insufficient for the moment...NO...that's not it...Oh..what's that you say? Huh? I'm not so sure...you really think so? Oh....I'm sure that would fly with that Alcott woman or Thackerery, aye? Or maybe Lyton or Eliot. If you insist.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, we had nothing before us; we were all going directly to Heaven, we were all going the other way.
Carlotta Dickens 1859
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Con grande amore e di affetto, Andrea Lena
Love, Andrea Lena
The Dickens You Say?
Repetitive. The reader wants action. Get on with it. Better to open with heads rolling. Where's the beef?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Editing at its best...
...is not a transparent process, because an editor is not a proofreader. A real editor is an integral part of the creative process, and they're usually paid by someone, either the author or the publisher. A good editor has the emotional distance and literary knowledge and skill to be able to step back and look at the work as a whole, either asking pertinent questions or making specific suggestions that allow an author to create the best work they're capable of, not just a grammatically correct rendition of a raw manuscript with good spelling.
A real editor isn't afraid to tell the author that a scene drags, or that the ending doesn't work, or that they're using passive verbs and too many adverbs and should tighten up the writing in order to create something that will carry the meaning the author appears to be striving for in a powerful manner.
Demanding that an editor tiptoe around the manuscript is like going to a golf coach to improve your game but then asking them to refrain from correcting the way you address the ball and swing, and to never never never tell you which club to use on a given fairway.
Real editors won't work with authors who are too touchy and defensive, just as real golf pros will suggest that one find another teacher if one throws too many tantrums.
The business of an editor is not to hint, but to correct, so that the author is better able to create the perfected version of their own story.
Authors often argue with their editors, which is perfectly proper, because authors often do such a poor job of communicating what they meant to say that the tender mercies of an editor may lead the story away from what the author was trying to do, but didn't quite succeed at. If the editor sees that the author is apparently trying to write a tragedy, their advice may be flawed if the story was meant to be a spoof of the Marx Brothers in A Day at the Opera.
It's also true that editors have a point of view, and personal tastes, so it's entirely possible to have a mismatch between author and editor that a good editor will quickly discover and make plain. If the author wants to write The Story of O, and the editor's idea of the perfect novel is Little House on the Prairie, there's little possibility of a useful dialogue and the editor should either bow out or make it clear that their services will be of limited use and value to the author.
That's where the conversation between the editor and the author comes into play. An editor has to retain their distance from the story, and not become invested in their own ideas, but provide a sounding board for the author to help them develop a strategy for presenting the story they want to tell in the best possible way, or to frankly decline to take on the task of editing a work they have no sympathy for.
The case of Heinlein was mentioned, which I think is an excellent example. I've read some of the "unexpurgated" versions of Heinlein's stories which came out posthumously, and from my own viewpoint it's lucky he had an editor, because I don't find his unedited opinions at all attractive, and would never have purchased his "adult" books. Heinlein pushed the edge of what was tasteful for his era, after being trimmed back by his editors, but I'm a product of that era, and agree with his editors more often than I do Heinlein himself.
The business of an author is to entertain, so if he offends his audience, he's failed at his primary task. This is no different to going to a concert to listen to a vocalist. If the singer can't carry a tune, one is entitled to walk out. One doesn't have to learn to appreciate unresolved dissonance just because the singer can't tell the difference between C-sharp and D.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Just because you can't edit, doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Who knows, maybe they'll get better at it. LOL
Sorry, I could not resist, and with no one to properly punish me, I've run amok!
K
Ah.... editing
It's all a bit fraught, though shouldn't be really. I know when I first posted there is no way I would have thought of letting someone else play with my words. I mean every one is placed with care and has meaning. Not counting the typos and un-clarities and ambient womboling of course...cough. They's my babies, precious and personal. Yet after a few... discussions, I did consider that just maybe another pair of eyes might not be a loss of innocence or integrity or even show lack of confidence.
It does need mutual respect, trust and some give and take. That it is the authors is always true but a careful editor can help improve and polish without messing with the feeling. I know that I consider two of mine that were edited my best. One of those two for example Jill suggested a small addition at the end. It improved and clarified the whole story whereas my original intended ending was less clear and did not resolve things as neatly. A simple suggestion without putting words in my mouth as it were. I still toss out the shorter little stories sans edit though, different approach for different things.
Holly, Gabi and Puddintane have given me advice on various things here and there as well which I appreciate. No way do I know it all or pretend to. There's no rules anyone has to follow but any author owes the reader the best they can do. Crappy grammar and spelling is distracting, a good editor will proof too, but editing is more than that, when you have someone that you like and work well with, treasure it. If you need a bit of help, just ask....don't forget though it's always yours, the author has final say... but do listen, no one is perfect. Lastly... it's meant to be fun too, so enjoy.
Kristina