Rule One Means...

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Disrespecting anyone's profession of belief in a comment, blog or forum post is not allowed on BC. Please don't attempt to embarrass someone with public comments here. But is this a friendly place for atheists? I try to make it so.

You can announce your beliefs without dissing other people's in public. I remove comments and blogs where someone calls out their version of religion as being the only true one. You can announce what you believe or don't believe but no proselytizing. And trying to ridicule other people's beliefs is definitely against Rule One.

Myself, I am an agnostic, I've not seen anything that proves things one way or another. Because I can imagine a God big enough to make the universe does not mean such a God exists -- or does not exist. I'm also not sure that such a God would be interested in what we are doing; that's a completely separate postulate.

But those are my beliefs and I don't force them on anyone. In fact, this is the first time I've mentioned them in public here but anyone who reads what I say about God and prayer and religion could probably have guessed. Agnostics are, by the way, considered one stripe of atheist, both by atheist and by religious types. Just not by agnostics who really aren't sure about that. :)

But I'm an agnostic because I have found something to believe in and I am willing to call that something God if it makes anyone more comfortable. I believe in that Postulate, Principle, Power, or Personage in the Universe that makes living a moral life worth doing. I find Doubt as a guiding light more useful than Faith in this, but that is for me and I don't even recommend it to everyone.

So, I'm not an atheist in the sense most people think of the word. I was raised in a Christian home and attended church growing up, sometimes as often as eight times a week (twice on Sunday). I found a lot that was good and fine in church and some that was less so, but that's just my experience. Most organized religions seem to be constructed to scare little kids into minding their parents. I suppose in a way, that's a good thing. :)

But here's a question for anyone who wants to think about it: Who is more righteous, a person who tries to do the right thing because of a hope of reward or a fear of punishment? Or someone who makes the same attempt because doing so IS the right thing?

Hugs to all,
Erin

Comments

As another agnostic, I'll

As another agnostic, I'll throw something else out. You can be a Christian without believing in the religious parts. No matter what else is in there, the man known as Christ had some damned good points on how to live your life. I was raised with those beliefs, and I don't see any reason to give them up - even if I became a Zoroastrian.

Just try to treat others the way you want to be treated - unless you're a masochist.


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

i wondrr

Sorry if these threads are about me. People are free to PM me at anytime to express concern

Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)

Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life

Well put

But I believe in God but I share your beliefs not to and not wanting to complain about my beliefs. that's as far as I'm going to go, peace,Arecee

Morality

I have issues with a certain breed of religious people, following on from Erin's comment about 'doing the right thing'. These folk tell me that it is impossible for an atheist to be moral, because all morality stems from scripture. A nice self-fulfilling prophecy there, then.

I also have issues when people claim that religious beliefs should be immune from criticism, or that their practices should be because they are religion-based. Well, tough. If a religious belief espouses sexism, homophobia, bigotry of any sort, then I reserve the right to call a spade a spade. Westboro springs immediately to mind.
What is important, however, is courtesy. When at a dinner party, one does not discuss in public the large wart on another person's face, or the lack of attractiveness of their children. There are areas that good manners steer clear of. It's as simple as that.

My own beliefs have led to a LOT of arguments with a certain type of religious person. I am a fellow-traveller with Bertrand Russell here, who stressed the difference between the evangelical certainty that there is no deity on one hand, and the lack of any need to consider the existence of one on the other. His image was that of a purported teapot orbiting the Earth: some people might believe in it, some not, and the arguments would be ferocious. He simply dismissed the idea as unnecessary.

There you have it. I don't disbelieve in a god, I simply don't feel the need to consider his/her/their existence in the first place. A bit like phlogiston, or the ether. On the other hand, my religious friends here tell me I write good Christian sermons...

Even religious people ...

... should try out doubt sometimes. Not as an opposite to faith (which I think it isn't) but as its companion.

Doubt makes me think. It makes me reflect on my beliefs (and other people's beliefs), enabling me to refine them and strengthen my faith.

It also makes me realize that my beliefs, as strong as they may be, are just that. They are not certainties, or even laws I may force others to observe.
"It ain't necessarily so", even if I believe it to be. Maybe that's part of the humility the Bible tries to teach?

--- Martin

The Problem With Religion

joannebarbarella's picture

Is that it's so SERIOUS.

I mean are there any funny stories or jokes in any of the Holy books? We all need a laugh sometimes,

Joanne

i am a

Raff01's picture

Chocoltarian, that is the belief in all things chocolate, and I am never serious. Best part is it works with all other religions, well except any that say chocolate is bad for you

And remember, The next high holy chocoltarian holiday is only under 3 months away. Halloween, or as I call it, scary chocolate day

Taste of the divine

Melange's picture

Best faith ever :)

I bet it'd be hard for people to stay truly angry with one another if they both ate chocolate while arguing.

Divine

Extravagance's picture

is a very ethical brand of chocolate. = )

Catfolk Pride.PNG

Actually

erin's picture

Parts of the Bible are funny, even in its serious moments. Read the story of the Left-Handed Assassin for a good grin. And you might chuckle out loud at the tale of how David cut out the back of Saul's robe while he was taking a dump. And the Song of Solomon has some giggle-worth poetry in it that is meant to make you smile.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

The only reason the NT

The only reason the NT doesn't have much humour (or human feeling) in it is simple. It's a bunch of letters written back and forth between people that called themselves the disciples of Jesus. Not much fun there. However, Jesus could take a joke - I mean, he accepted human existence, didn't he? :)


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

I have little to say about religion. (WARNING! RANT FOLLOWS)

Those who have it don't need my words, and those who don't, won't want to hear them. What I DO want to say, or ask, is: Are we adults or children? There should be NO need for Erin or any Siteowner to have to step in and issue warnings or slap wrists!

Please remember folks. These stories are just that, STORIES! They are FICTION! Live and let live. If you don't like something, DON'T READ IT! TRY to remember that we all share a particular belief, that of being TG or TV, or whatever flavor in that realm you identify with. God or whatever deity one chooses to believe in is up to t he individual and no one forces anyone else to believe what they do.

If you lay claim to being a reasoning adult, then STOP all this bickering and behave as an adult is expected to behave! If you have nothing nice to say to someone, SAY NOTHING AT ALL!

Erin has more than enough on her plate already and maintains this site so we can have a place to go that's friendly and understanding! She has invested virtually all her time and personal money to keeping the site online and improving! Show your respect for her, and respect others!

If you simply MUST say something negative to someone else, SAY IT IN A PRIVATE MESSAGE!

CATHERINE LINDA MICHEL

As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script. Y_0.jpg

Right on!

I think Catherine Linda has hit the nail on the head.

Grow up, People!

What we say in public is PUBLIC. Be Nice.

What we say in privare is private. That's why we have PMs.

Red MacDonald

My take...

I like the concept of a deity - but one that's more akin to a scientist: set the experiment in motion, observe, and generally don't interfere. I'm not keen on the concept of a deity as a strict parent / teacher (If you don't pray X times a day, attend Y services or have Z objects declaring your faith, you're not going to get into heaven, no matter how 'pure' you may be) or an agony uncle (answering prayers).

As for morality, easy: less selfishness, more altruism. Sadly an attitude largely absent from some in politics, who seem to advocate each person for themselves, and if someone's less fortunate than yourself, tough - it's their own fault and they shouldn't expect to have any help from anyone else whatsoever.

As for religion, there's an old joke that religion's fine until it gets organised - which largely boils down to various leaders over the years / centuries imposing their own stamp on the faith and imposing their prejudices on it, turning it from being inclusive (accepting all sorts) to exclusive (defining entire categories of people who are ineligible to follow / receive salvation; then supplementing that with a huge list of rites / rituals that must be followed, plus another huge list of things you're not allowed to do).

Of course, while a religion may officially be very closed minded and refusing to evolve with society, some individuals and congregations within can be far more open minded and inclusive, paying little to no attention to diktats from On High and following their own, friendlier path through life.


As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!

I also consider myself

KristineRead's picture

I also consider myself agnostic. I really don't care much about other folks religion, except for two things, 1) is it providing them with comfort in times of need, and 2) are they using it to persecute others.

The first is the good part of religion.

The second not so much.

I was raised Catholic, but was never confirmed, because I took a stand on that in 6th grade. (Much to my Mother's deep shame.) My own personal beliefs have evolved and although it is somewhat funny, the best description I have ever heard of it is the description of Star Wars' The Force. I do believe that there is an energy that comes from life that can be tapped into. Not the Jedi tricks and stuff, but I think there is something tangible there. But I really believe that it comes from life, not that life comes from it. I know chicken and the egg of course, but that's what feels right to me.

As for those that claim that an Athiest or an Agnostic cannot be moral, I have a few more choice words for them, but won't go there. I think someone above said it there are those of us that live very moral, even "Christian" lives that are not Christian, or any kind of theist.

The only reason to do the right thing is that it is the right thing. Belief in God or fear of punishment as the reason is not righteous, it's hypocritical. I refused to let my son watch Veggie Tales after watching the first episode with him and the message that they should not spread rumors and lies was because "Jesus says so." No the reason is because its wrong, and hurts people, at least that is my take on it. Others have different views, and that is fine, if it works for them.

Anyway, Erin, I do thank you for setting the Rules, because I have seen many sites go down because of these kinds of interactions.

Hugs,

Kristy

Gee, Kristine, I wish I coulld speak with your clarity...

Ole Ulfson's picture

I've used a lot more words to say less, including my reply to Sarah Lynn.

Hey, Guys, What she said except I'm a Deist..

Ole

We are each exactly as God made us. God does not make mistakes!

Gender rights are the new civil rights!

OH So Many Beliefs !

Good Heavens, Wallah, what am I to do?

GEEZ, I have atheists, agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists, Amish, Mennonites, and spaghetti monster worshipers in my life. For me, it adds zest to life. I even have science fiction believers.

None are any threat at all to me. Today I will attend Jummah Prayer with Muslim Friends, Sunday I will go to church with Mormon friends, and if someone asks me to go somewhere and dance to HOT Middle Eastern Music, Yallah ! I will go.

Few people know, or care to know that I think Isaac Asimov's , "Foundation Trillogy" is probably the closest to the real facts that I know of.

The point is that if I read something, and I don't like it, then I, guess what? I STOP!

Well...

Melanie Brown's picture

The Force surrounds us, penetrates us...it binds the Universe together...

Melanie

No, that's Duct Tape, Dark

No, that's Duct Tape, Dark Matter, or Gravity, depending on who you talk to.


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

The really funny thing is

KristineRead's picture

The really funny thing is whenever I hear, "May the Force be with you." As a result of being raised Catholic, I want to respond with "And also with you."

Hugs,

Kristy

LOL

That gave me a good chuckle.

Et cum spiritu tuo, to you and all your Jedi.

LOL.

It really does show how

KristineRead's picture

It really does show how engrained early indoctrination can become.

I mean really, I stopped going to church in 6th grade, when I told my parents I would not be confirmed, because I didn't believe. After Mom had the priest come to talk to me, and was told, no, he can't be confirmed, that was that.

Yet here it is over 36 years ago, and I can count on two hands the number of times I've been to church since, basically weddings and funerals, and it still pops in my mind immediately. Amazing that.

Hugs,

Kristy

It really does.

But I can top it. I was an atheist at seven. It got me tossed out of
my preparation for my first communion, because the father at the church we
were sent to for catechism, didn't much like my questions or answers. The
sister who actually taught the class... really did not like them.

Of course, after a trip up to Cardinal Cushing, my father asked me to please,
just for the time being, to go through the motions for him, "for Now." I did
it for my dad, but I can tell you that the Cardinal and my Dad were the only
two who could really handle it rationally.

What was odder still, was that when we moved to South Carolina, we were really
only the third catholic family in the area. And the others... well they were more
like southern Baptists than anyone else we knew. I'll elaborate. When you went
into the rectory, on the table in the kitchen were about ten cakes. Elaborate
red velvet cakes, and German chocolate cakes. Poor father Tenero, was starving
to death, and getting diabetes at the same time.

When we moved in, it was, please come for dinner father, and it was come in and
have a beer... chili tonight, but there is plenty of is. (My mother once got a
lecture from our family physician, because she really would cook a five course meal
every night.. and a great cook she was. He thought it was unnecessary.)

Anyway, to make the long story short, father Tenero ate with us several times a
week, and probably gained about twenty pounds in four months. Better, he had
a loud argument on cannon law, Vatican II, and the loss of continuity in the
church, from my dad, any time he wanted it. The upshot was that he enjoyed
those arguments far more than the ones he had with me.

The really bizarre twist was, that not only was I taking care of the swimming pool
for the parish for him, it turned out that I became an alter-boy, because I was the
only boy my age from catholic family. Father Tenero, and after him Father Touey,
both knew that I was an atheist, and I mean an Atheist. Now I did stop giving
the responses in Latin, because father Tenero really asked me nicely not to, but
it was damned funny to me that he really must have thought that grow out of it. I also
had quite a nice soprano voice.

It went on, until the bishop showed up... and I have to say that he was not pleased.
That discussion went on for about a half hour, and after several of the comments he
made, one where he said something nasty to both my dad and the father, the gloves came
off, and he was just not prepared to handle what.

I went with my dad a few times after that. When my mother was very ill. And there
came a lecture, as the result of some southern baptist-y things people were doing, saying t
hat the only person who did not belong in the congregation was the person who thought other
people did not belong there. I looked over my left shoulder, and then my right, and walked
out. It was the only thing one of them ever said, that I wholly agreed with.

Later,the third father, apologized. He had been traveling with the bishop that day before
my proposed confirmation. He said that I was a highly intelligent, polite, and well spoken
young man (little did they know!), and that even the bishop thought that I was very impressive.

The sad part is, and I'm assuming that I have not said this too many times, was that I
became an atheist I think, when I was Seven. There was no massive angst, or heroic moral
and logical struggle on my part. When I realized that my family thought differently about
the picture of the creepy-Jesus, than they did about the Easter Bunny, and Santa, and all
the other decorations that they put up around the year... and... that they never took Creepy
JC down. It really was a shock.

Anyway, I probably could have just said that I Grok, but without knowing how ingrained my
system of ethics always was, you can't really appreciate the irony of having someone tell me
that I can't be moral, or that I must be angry with god, or my favorite... I must just want
to sin all the time.

As for the last one... well, Yeah!

Sarah Lynn

What will we call ourselves... today.

You call yourself an Agnostic, Erin, but what you describe is a Deist.

Also, you might consider that there are many atheists these days, who do not
consider agnostics to be atheists, because it really isn't the same thing. In
fact, you can be like me, an agnostic atheist, or a gnostic theist. The two terms
are not really mutually exclusive.

If you have come to a conclusion, and you've made a decision either way, you are
either a theist (and Deist is a type of theist.), or you are an atheist. Regardless
of what you decide with respect to weather or not a god exists, you may also explain
that you are Gnostic, which means that you hold some discrete knowledge, or some
body of knowledge, that convinces you either way.

The rub here, however, is that there are many out here who are like me, who do not
believe that anyone can be a Gnostic anything. An atheist can not disprove a negative,
as that is a logically inviolable impossibility. I know a great deal about religions,
and theologies, mythology and history... But you can never know the one bit of information that
you'd like to know to settle the question. Likewise, it is also apparent that no theist
knows something that passes on the order of an empirical proof. This is why they resort
to issues of faith and feelings, and just knowing. They may be perfectly happy
believing as they do, but then again, the actual proof they claim has always been, by the
rational standards applied to any other field of human inquiry, no proof at all. Thus,
bu any objective standard, they are agnostic as well.

Remember here, that when an anthropologist, or sociologist, refers to the term 'Belief,'
that he is referring to a concept that some group or individual holds to be true. The
concept itself may or may not be valid, true or untrue. They also work with the idea,
that even demonstrably false beliefs, are part of the body of knowledge for a culture,
because they are acted on as if they were. That is why a person like me, will most
often specify, the more objective and reproducible standard for knowledge, that is
empiricism. Epistemologicly, it is still only a subset, but its validity and superiority
as a way of knowing, is amply ratified by the scientific method.

Thus, although I find it perfectly descriptive for someone who does not feel that they
know, to describe themselves as an Agnostic, when a theist or and atheist describes themselves
as a Gnostic Atheist or a Gnostic Theist, my bull-shit alarm goes off immediately. Ten-
thousand years of recorded human history without tangible and reproducible evidence, isn't a
basis for claiming that knowledge even exists, let alone that it is held by an individual who
simply had not deigned to tell the rest of we curious folk.

Remember too, that Gnostic Christians where Christians who claimed secret knowledge, or
knowledge of rituals. There are many Gnostic orders and societies, that pertain to everything
from secret handshakes, to the budget for 2014. That isn't really the same as the entomological
considerations and standards that most atheists like myself are talking about when we discuss
Gnosticism as an adjunct to Theism, or Atheism.

Just something to think about.

Sorry

erin's picture

Perhaps I overstated something, but no, I am an agnostic because I reserve judgement. A Deist or theist believes firmly in some sort of God that is a personage or presence. I don't. I'm wiling to behave as if I do, though. It is not upsetting to me that other people believe in God or gods or don't. It's all personal to me.

I do believe that it is worthwhile to live a moral life, and that comes close to a theist belief, but it is not the same thing. But the principle or whatever it is that I hold to be true is completely my own, it is internal and I don't see firm evidence that it exists anywhere but in my own determination to do the right thing.

Clearer?

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Quote

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" -- Thomas Jefferson


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

I have never before read

a quote form Thomas Jefferson, that I disagreed with more.

I your neighbor keeps it to himself, and behaves in an ethical manner, then you have no problem.
Most religious beliefs are nowhere near so benign. If your neighbor is your representative proposing
legislation to eviscerate education, or a cannibal who requires human sacrifice, or an Jihadi who thinks
that Thom should convert or be put to death... or worse a School Teacher who believes that it is morally
offensive to limit her freedom to indoctrinate every little mind with whom she comes into contact... that
Legless, penniless Thomas J. has a very real problem.

The _point_ is that it

The _point_ is that it doesn't matter what your neighbor _believes_. Actions and beliefs are NOT the same thing. Your neighbor can be a Satanist who has a pentagram in his living room, and sacrifices chickens and goats on alternating weekend with the Voudoun priestess on the other side. Neither belief threatens you, or has an effect on your belief. Now, if they start trying to sacrifice you, that still doesn't threate your beliefs, and has to be dealt with on a different level. (As in, your right to tell them to stay off of your lawn, and enforce it with your second amendment right. Plus the calling of the cops and the health department for threatening your health with mounds of entrails in the yard from reading the augeries)


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

Thomas Jefferson

D. Eden's picture

The key to Thomas Jefferson is that he believed that all people had the right to be or do as they chose to, up to the point that they infringed upon another person's.

He said, and I quote, " One man's rights end when they infringe upon another's."

I think that this demonstrates the concept of live and let live better than the previous quote.

It's not about organized religion, which is simply another form of large conglomerate - one that is stuck in the middle ages. It's all about morality. You can live a moral life without being religious, but you can't be religious without having morals.

D. Eden

Dum Vivimus, Vivamus

You don't need to explain a benign belief.

Nor can you make the point that the pattern you describe is the most common one
There are many Christians in this country who don't know the first thing about the
religions to which they profess to ascribe. Most would never even think of bringing
it up in a discussion. By the same token, though, a vast number of them wouldn't vote
for a well qualified atheist. The same will vote for representative Brown, who said
that the seminal theories of the biological sciences, the way life on this planet works,
were "Lies straight from the pit of hell."

You don't need to explain that a benign beliefs hold no danger for anyone, but you have
very little hope of making the case, that these people are not making a plethora of decisions
every day, based on the worst possible information, and that those decisions are often very bad.

Just today, I was involved in a discussion, which was the usual nonsense, that since I had
not read the entire proceedings of The Constitutional Convention, that I could not know that
the intent of the establishment clause was not to simply keep on religious sect from gaining
supremacy over all. others. I tried in vain, that one of the subtitles of our legislative
systems, is that it really is the one place that an elected representative my represent his
constituents in any way they want him or her to so do. He can ignore every real problem we face
to clutter the legislative agenda with proposed bills that all mashed potatos must be placed on
the plate in the form of a cross; and, as long as he doesn't violate the ethics rules of his
body, or the constitutions as the pertain, he is perfectly free to do so, and no one but his
voters can stop him.

But the establishment clause, can, and does stop him.

These are the same people who think that godless atheist have run amok in a vendetta to erase
all the religious freedoms they can get their hands on. They never seem to realize, that in the
vast majority of cases, the actions are not only instituted by the theists themselves, but that
in almost every instance, the actions undertaken by secularists are in an effort to redress some
of the excesses that good god-fearing people have thought it was their mandate to create. Without
that voice of descent, they just go right along and put their stamp on everything, and have the
effrontery to feel abused when someone tells them that they really should not be doing that.

People's beliefs are simply not something that they keep in their garage used only to light the
charcoal grill on the fourth, and they don't exist in a vacuum. And... If you talk to people
specifically about ethics and beliefs, you'll not have to talk too long, before you have just the
nicest and sweetest little old lady tell you that gay people should be killed. Who was it that
said good people do good things, and evil people do evil things; but, to make a good person do
evil things, really takes a religion? In a bell-jar, on a dusty table in the back room of some
library, surrounded by old philosophy books and even older wordy old men, they are not much danger
to anyone, these benign beliefs of yours. In the real world that are far more pernicious.

The Vector and the Disease

laika's picture

There's no getting around the fact that over the centuries a lot of horrible things have been done
in the name of religion. But despite appearances and a seeming causal connection, it's not because
religion is inherently evil or damaging to individuals and groups, but because Religion was
THE major body of social organization and group identity throughout the world until recently.
To my way of thinking it's more like religion was not the disease but the vector by which
the disease has been incubated and communicated. Human nature abhors a vacuum,
and in the absence of a God-mythos political ideologies or even competing psychology movements
are just as capable of fucking our shit up and making us act horrible. The disease changes its
intellectual trappings, the exact belief system it attaches to doesn't really matter,
it could be anything. But at its heart it's always the same:

ONCE EVERYBODY ELSE BELIEVES AS I DO THIS WORLD WILL BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE.
THE PROBLEM WITH THE WORLD IS THOSE FOLKS & THE DANGEROUS THINGS THEY BELIEVE,
THEY'RE ENDANGERING PEOPLES IMMORTAL SOULS/ABILITY TO REASON/THEIR MOJO/WHATEVER
AND IT HAS TO STOP...

This leads soon enough to the ends justifying the means when it comes to making the world safe
from THEM for the good of everyone else. It's magical boogey-man thinking and it won't be gotten
rid of with any solution as simple as getting rid of the notion of God/gods. In fact the imagined
need to improve/elevate everyone else to our level of post-superstitious rationality + enlightenment
is as ripe a medium for the sickness to flourish in as any of these competing
"one true system of worship that won't anger the Sky Daddy"...

The solution seems to be- Don't take your own ideas about stuff so all-fired seriously,
learn to concede that you might just be wrong. We're all just dumb monkeys a few centuries
out of the trees trying to figure stuff out with some fairly glitchy meat computers.
And don't worry that THEY'RE not willing to do this. If their actions impinge on your rights
or life deal with that, but don't try to cure them according to your own perfect system
of thought because it might not in fact be all that...

~Or hell, I dunno. I could be wrong////// Veronica

Exactly

erin's picture

It's an article of faith with me that I might be wrong. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Amen Space Puppy

kristina l s's picture

Oh... sorry, poor word choice. My Bad as the US-ites are wont to say. Looks like ya can't delete this one.

k

And I couldn't agree more.

I think that would be a reasonably fair statement of what I, and
most of the people I discuss this stuff with feel. All except the part
of suggesting that we are so stuck on ourselves that we are looking to
lift everyone up to our reasoned level.

Two problems though. This live and let live thing is a very good way
to go about things. I has a flaw, though, in that when a group out
there is really out to get you, and you ignore and delay and hole off,
because that's just their way. Eventually, not wanting to confront the
problem, only makes the whole thing more costly.

We are a half a chromosome away from sitting in trees and eating leaves,
but we have enough history to have learned another lesson as well. Our
flaws are universal to humans, but so are our progressions. They almost always
begin with someone saying that this is wrong. That, although we are afraid
to upset the equilibrium, or we are reticent to push our beliefs as others
have done to such excess in the past, the key feature of our gains lies in
the fact that someone is willing to say, that there has to be a better way.

You may be a person who is fearful of anyone who says that they know what is
best, and you'd be right to, Laika. But that is not excuse to ignore the real
problem, especially when it is causing people real pain. And... The only thing
that I disagree with, is that there has been a lot of damage done by these people
in the past. It's still going on. You guys may not know this, but there is a
genocide going on in the middle east and Africa right now, and religious
persecution of a very severe nature in Asia. And sometimes the Religious doctrine
isn't just a neutral vehicle. Religions are created by these flawed men, and
those vehicles are imbued with the same xenophobia, and bigotry, fascism and
supremacist ideals, as the people themselves are.

I also think that it's in the extremis of the liberal view, to suggest that
wanting people to think for themselves, and to be better educated, is a fascism
no different than all those others. We people always have to be careful of our
views tending toward the extreme. :P I know that I always am.

I'm agnostic, but I lean

I'm agnostic, but I lean towards polytheism, if any form of theism.


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

Not really.

"But I'm an agnostic because I have found something to believe in and I am willing to call that something God if it makes anyone more comfortable. I believe in that Postulate, Principle, Power, or Personage in the Universe that makes living a moral life worth doing."

This is a statement of Deistic beliefs, regardless of what you call yourself. There is nothing wrong with being agnosticism but feeling that there must be "Something" "out there" that makes a moral life worthwhile, or which served as the source of some part of the organization of existence we experience.

I believe a moral life is worthwhile, because I ascribe to the basic underlying precepts of morality and ethics, which are basically empathy and sympathy. I don't expect to be rewarded, and I have no reason to believe that they ethical behavior will of a necessity, or even as a matter of course, be rewarded. It is, however, what I want. That is not a theist belief. I am the personage who makes an ethical life, worthwhile.

Religion and dogma, have no claim on morality, despite the bumptious claims so many Christians would have us believe. The first source of morality is our Evolutionary history. We are social primates, great apes, and as such we have evolved to behave along certain norms. Sympathy and compassion for others of our tribe and close relations; suspicion of those who act far from the norm, and fear of ostracism for ourselves. We need to get along with the other apes, and we know that there is a very good chance that the big ape will kick our asses if we act out

The second source for morality, is societal. We are punished by our society and by our peers for behavior that they see as a threat to them, or as a danger to the group. We learn young, that there are punishments and laws to take care of good behavior, and that it is easier and rewarding to behave in ways that we are expected.

The third is that we tend to emulate the behavior of some roll model. For me it was my father. I was being pushed around in the buggy, and very young, when my father walked us back into the A&P to return three cents to the cashier who had made a mistake. From that day, I have always done the same... even if no one ever knew. There are those, however, whose parents have taught that it's perfectly acceptable to shoplift from Walmart because they are big enough, or to do things that they find rewarding as long as they can get away with it.

These principals of human ethics far predate religions, and have always been present in humans. They are equally obvious in societies that lack contact with outside cultures, as they are in Small-Town America.

It was this very principal that was my first questioning of theology, just as you stated Erin. It never seemed to me that someone was a good person, to be admired and emulated, if they did what they did while someone had a very big gun aimed at their heads. Operant conditioning does not always satisfy the conditions of morality, and neither does fear of infinite conscious torment.

Sarah Lynn

You can believe what you want about what I believe

erin's picture

But what I believe is what I believe, it is not defined by you.

I find it incredible that you are willing to argue about this. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

I believe..

I believe I'll have a drink.


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

This will freak everyone out, Erin,

Ole Ulfson's picture

But this is the clearest and best statement on the subject so far!

Ole

We are each exactly as God made us. God does not make mistakes!

Gender rights are the new civil rights!

How odd, Erin.

I thought we were talking about it. I also thought some of
the ideas might actually be of interest to you. I hadn't
thought we were arguing.

I'm not willing to argue with you about it. What I find
incredible is that after ten years here, you would think that
I was. It's interesting, but not worth you being annoyed
by it.

Sarah

"You call this an agrument?"

erin's picture

LOL.

Well, that was probably too strong a word but yes, you were coming across as disputing what I was saying about myself.

And yes, the other stuff was interesting but it isn't as if I don't know the difference between a Deist, a theist and an agnostic. I've done a lot of reading on these subjects.

Still, it's better than getting hit on the head lessons, isn't it? :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Hit on the head lessons..

What a stupid concept.

*ducks*


I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.

I've been waiting for this...

Ole Ulfson's picture

You can explain this better than anyone I know!

Over the years I've become an I don't carist! If someones religion or doubt or lack of belief brings them comfort and happiness: I don't care. As long as they don't use their belief to hurt others: I don't care. I know what I believe but if no one on earth shares that belief: I don't care I only believe in good and evil. I believe in God as I see Him/Her, I believe in evolution and science and Kepler and Einstein. Just because I believe doesn't mean I turned my brain off and gave up freedom of thought.

I try to be and do good, but I'm sure someone here thinks I'm evil: I don't care.

I'm glad you posted this, Sarah, because no one else I know could have expressed your belief as clearly.

Ole

We are each exactly as God made us. God does not make mistakes!

Gender rights are the new civil rights!

Do to no one what you yourself dislike

I like the Book of Tobias.

Life's a bitch. At 65 I still feel like it would have been nice to have a had a much better owner's manual.
Religion seems to spend a huge amount of time on Thou Shalt Not and not enough time on "Hey . . . it would be nice if. . ."

The last couple of years have been extremely good to GLBT. Most of that good has been due to efforts to shift people to simple tolerance.

Over a decade I co-authored a book about raising awareness of bullying. Magically that started to happen in schools.

Yesterday, gays first stood before the eyes of our law in my state and declared their love. WOW!

The new Pope is extending olive branches. Who would have thought?

When I first came to BC . . . over a decade ago, even though my counter was reset once. . . BC was an island of tolerance. It is still an island, that needs to take a lesson or two from mainstream.

Jill

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Interesting post

Haylee V's picture

I know what I believe, having experienced death three times already. Yeah, I saw the tunnel, the bright light, etc. I also heard a gentle, friendly, yet firm voice chide me and say it was not yet my time. Is there a God? I firmly believe so. Do I have a right to push my beliefs on others? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I can only tell others what I know first hand. It's up to them to draw their own conclusions.

*Kisses Always*
Haylee V