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Women paedophiles are more common than we think. It's something I learned when doing counsellor training, however we never see or hear too much else about it. Then today on BBC Radio 4, Woman's Hour, there was an interesting article on it at the start of the programme, and lo and behold, at tea time some woman was arrested in Maine for child sexual abuse with her own children, which she was filming and selling via the internet. She was caught through liaison with West Midlands Police in the UK, who were investigating someone for downloading and selling child porn pictures on the net.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8100949.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00kwkjh/Womans_Hour_15...
The fact that adults abuse anyone offends me, that they abuse the innocent and the vulnerable, offends me even more. That these abusers are often parents or close relatives disgusts me. As a woman, it horrifies me even more that other women can do this to children, and their own children - sometimes I think I came to the wrong planet!
Comments
It's surprisingly common all around the world...
N. Maine Woman Charged In Child Porn Probe:
http://www.wmtw.com/news/19754844/detail.html
Gurkhas' sisters sold into AIDs hell of 'supermarket' brothels in India:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52/053.html
Trafficking of Burmese Women and Girls into Brothels in Thailand:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/1994/01/30/trafficking-burmese-wo...
The Shame of Child Slavery
http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/slavery/cover.html
It's difficult to say what the ultimate cause is, misogyny in male-dominated societies, systematic cultural devaluing of women and girls, dire poverty in the midst of a global marketplace, or the perverted lust of some men for children.
Maybe all of the above.
I can't figure it out,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
women who have lost the maternal instinct
I agree with you Angharad. I cannot have children and now am too old for it anyway but my instinct to protect and assist any child is very great.
Of course I grew up in a time when all adults protected all children, but even so.
If a man perpetrates sexual perversions upon an innocent child (all CHILDREN are innocent) then he should be hoisted by his..... and drawn and quartered. That a woman would do such things to a child especially her own should be treated with equal abuse.
Only by protecting the children may we break this cycle and have a chance of ridding this world of such perversions.
I wasn't given the choice of a planet to land upon... If I had been I probably would have asked for Tranquility even with it's problems. At least there children are not abused in such manner. (or any other that I know of)
God Bless You...
and may She protect all children
Did you really?
"Of course I grew up in a time when all adults protected all children, but even so"
I just wonder when exactly that was? It was certainly before my time and I'm on the threshold of 70. Perhaps there was such a time in the USA; I'm quite sure there wasn't in my lifetime in the UK. For example my scout master was jailed for offences against boys in his care (not me) and after release continued to live in the town unmolested.
I'm always suspicious of people referring to some mythical 'Golden Age' that's always only just in the past and some supposed modern evil has suddenly changed human nature. It hasn't. Perhaps the main thing that's changed is communication. Before the all pervasive media (particularly now the electronic and digital media) were widely available things happened in remote and private areas that were known only to a few and regarded as sad but 'normal'.
Many abusers were themselves abused. At what point does a victim become a perpetrator?
I find the attitude towards men in TG fiction is often, though not invariably, negative. Perhaps it's because there's none so pure as the purified. Someone even suggested that 60% of men would rape if the chance of detection was minimal. I find that offensive. In fact, in the UK where conviction rates for rape are very low, the chances of getting away with it are very high and so it would seem that the majority of men are actively seeking opportunities to rape. I think not.
I'm sure Angharad read the article in the Observer by columnist Barbara Ellen last Sunday in which she questioned the extra hate for women paedophiles. She suggested that they should be condemned as much and as vehemently as male offenders - no more, no less. That seems a reasonable position to me. Not wanting children is a choice made by both men and women - my wife and I are a case in point and other choices or perversions are the same.
Geoff
>> Offensive...
Sorry. We'll assume that you're in the minority, then.
But in the Sexual Experience Questionnaire (Ross & Allger, 1991) 41% of men reported that they had coerced at least one woman into having sex and 79% of women reported that they had been coerced into having sex that they didn't want to engage in. One presumes that at least some men thought about it and decided not to, so 60% is not at all unreasonable.
These acts of sexual aggression may or may not have risen to the level of rape in the mind of the woman involved, as women are as well-supplied with the usual excuses as men are: "I should have known better." Likewise, men may not think of themselves as rapists if their aggression results in intercourse, because it's quite easy for men to persuade themselves that "she really wanted it," or that "no means yes."
None-the-less, *any* level of force or coercion that results in an unwanted sex act is legally rape, even if neither party thinks of it as such.
The Coercive Sexuality Scale (Rapaport and Burkhart, 1984) asked, "How many times have you had intercourse with a someone against their will?" with a rough mirror question asked about experiencing such an assault. 97% of assaulters were male. 97% of victims were female. It's disingenuous to maintain that levels of aggression are "equal" in any real sense. One doesn't typically find solitary men afraid of going out at night for fear a group of Girl Guides will rape them.
It's also true that "coercion" is viewed differently by men and women, with both men and women thinking that provocative display and other enticements, when engaged in by women, are coercive. Coercive behaviour by men, on the other hand, is viewed as consisting of both physical force or verbal threats of force or dire consequences by both men and women.
The response to "coercion" was equally gender-specific, with women fearing any combination of physical assault, economic, or emotional abandonment, while men mostly worried about their reputations if it got out that a woman was "throwing themselves at him" and he "couldn't get it up," or might secretly "be gay."
The sequelae were also different, with 88% of women being emotionally upset after a coerced sexual act, and 78% reporting that such acts resulted in long-term damage to their sense of safety, self-esteem, and/or security. Most "coerced" men felt either good (27%) or neutral (46%) and 69% felt that that was no long-term impact.
The world looks very different to men and women, and it seems to me, from a very limited perspective, that many men sail along almost completely oblivious to "tiny little details" that many women obsess over and which loom large on their near horizons.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
offensive & absurd
This is getting absolutely absurd. Before you were saying "most" or 60% of men would rape if they could get away with it. Now you are saying 41% of men confess to having coerced someone. First, these kinds of self report surveys are meaningless, the words mean different things to different people. "Come on, Mary!" may be coercion to one person, and it may well be the least coercive people, the remorseful ones that will say that.
Women, still even today, are less likely to report any sexual longings or actions at all than men, that is not gender or genetics, but enculturation. But if you used a less masculine word for coerced, say manipulated; and a more femininely acceptable goal, a gift. It would be the least manipulative women that would report having used means they feel unfair. AND you would get fewer men making the confession too.
You admit all this but still draw conclusions from it that only men are the ones taking advantage of the limited roles. Well women do like sex, it has been proven. But 'most' or 'many' or 'a lot' of men is not the number of males that do or would prey on any woman, any more than it is the number of women that would prey on men.
Evil is not a sex linked trait. Misandry is no more supported or well-informed than misogyny is.
There are hate filled vicious people out there. Physical strength is sex linked; so on the very simplistic, short term, level males are more dangerous; they may have a few, but only a few, more opportunities too, but they are not more prone to being hate filled or vicious.
It just is not a nice simple little world. And i don't think you have all that much insight into the "male mind" and what they obsess over, at the very best you only have heard (and may not have heeded), the things their enculturation allows them to say to you. And remember that that silence, as well as any aggression you feel they are more free to show, is part of an encultration that was done all most entirely by women (and, that was not the men's choice.)
[now there will be one place in the world that doesn't think I'm a misandronist (and you will be right); and one place where some will think i'm a misogynist (and that some will be wrong)]
I suggest...
That anyone really interested in this topic read the extensive literature, find a copy of Zimbardo's excellent book, The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil, based on his experiences during the Prison experiment, and his new study of the literature as a defence witness for some of the guards chosen as scapegoats for the Abu Ghraib crimes, and perhaps reread my posts in this and the other thread. My take on this is far more nuanced and humane than some seem inclined to understand, and I'm done with both threads.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
I agree its horrific, however
The part where you say As a woman, it horrifies me even more that other women can do this to children, and their own children - sometimes I think I came to the wrong planet!
Men are not inherently MORE evil than women. There have been plenty of female teachers in the news in recent years having sex with boys. Women selling their daughters into slavery and prostitution for centuries.
Even if they aren't evil, you hear about how women bosses treat women employees worse than they treat men. Backstabbing from gradeschool on up through adulthood...
There are GOOD men, and there are evil ones, there are GOOD women, and there are evil ones. And the vast majority of both are closer to good than evil I believe. Evil is evil regardless the sex of the perpetrator.
HUGS
Frank
Evil?
Cruel, selfish, thoughtless, contemptuous of other human beings, morally obtuse, hateful, any of these might be appropriate, but evil is essentially devoid of meaning except in a religious context, in which the concept is so specific to religious ephemera as to be so closely tied to individual groups and times that it has so much specific meaning, and so little universal meaning, as to be without value outside that particular milieu.
Slavery is, or was, seen by many cultures as not only morally justifiable, but the "natural" state of certain groups of people. The very word, "slave," refers to Slavic peoples, who were for large portions of their history so militarily insignificant that enslaving them had little cost. They were a large part of Hitler's plan of ethnic cleansing for this same reason. Like the "tribe of Ham," whose father "saw" his father's "nakedness," some peoples, often including all women not under the immediate protection of a man, and protocols set up to deal with who might, or might not be enslaved. The Bible has specific rules covering exactly how "beautiful captive women" were to be treated, for example, and while one was allowed to rape her once or or maybe twice on the battlefield, after that, if one decided to take her home, one had to give her a month to to mourn the loss of her freedom and family, but then she could be "married" against her will.
It's very clear that sexual slavery was and is inherent in every system of slavery, and every human alive today has a background of chattel (and therefore sexual) slavery in their cultural background. Thomas Jefferson, the "Father of US Democracy," was a slave-holder and rapist, and admitted early in his career that "The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it, and daily exercised in tyranny, cannot but be stamped by it with odious peculiarities.. . . ." -- Notes on the State of Virginia
Until fairly recently it was impossible for a man to "rape" his wife, because he "owned" her sexual access, and had the "right" to enforce that access, as a Landlord can demand access to his premises. This situation still exists in much of the world, so it seems impossible to separate the treatment of children from the treatment of every woman, many of whom are in a state of sexual bondage in every city and country of the world, whether supported by law or custom or merely winked at by corrupt authorities.
I disagree that there is no essential difference between men and women in regard to sexual exploitation. The vast majority of such impositions are performed by men (not every man) upon women (and not every woman -- but a surprising number of them). An amazingly large number of men (60% -- a little less than two thirds) will admit that, if they were assured that they would "get away with it," they would contemplate raping a woman alone and in their power or use would force to coerce her co-operation.
In that context, raping a child, or coercing sexual acquiescence from her, seems merely a variation on a general theme, with a victim who is *particularly* powerless, but not uniquely so.
I doubt very seriously that one could find a similar number of women who would agree that raping men and/or boys is a reasonable thing to do.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
"Lies, damned lies, and ..."
I find it VERY hard to believe that "An amazingly large number of men (60% -- a little less than two thirds) will admit that, if they were assured that they would "get away with it," they would contemplate raping a woman alone and in their power or use would force to coerce her co-operation." I'm sure whoever was asking the question (if the poll actually exists, or is just another urban legend) managed to find a way to frame a question so that men easily convicted themselves of behavior they would never actually consider outside of a bogus poll question.
I find this idea -- this prejudice against the male of the species -- seems to run rampant through TG fiction. Somehow, men are too often portrayed as being barely human, as if they're all a hair's breadth away from beating and raping anything female in the vicinity. It is almost automatically assumed that men naturally lack anything resembling empathy or love or compassion just because they're burdened with an excess of testosterone. And talk about a good man being hard to find? Granted, every woman needs to kiss her share of frogs, but in TG fictionland, most of the frogs have razor-sharp teeth and aren't afraid to use them.
No man I call friend, no male member of my family, would ever think it's okay to rape a woman, even if they could "get away with it." And tarring everyone with a Y chromosome as a potential rapist is one of the things that used to drive me crazy in women's studies courses when i went to college. If you only see what your own fear and hatred tells you to see, you'll never see a good man, just a reflection of your own hate.
I don't think I could live my life thinking every man was a walking cesspool of suppressed rage and violence, waiting to aim his fists or his cock at me. I will NEVER believe half the race is holding onto civilized behavior by the skin of their teeth. I know too many good men to buy that lie.
Randalynn
That's not to say...
...that anywhere *near* that many men *will* rape, only that it's something that most men have either contemplated or believe that it's theoretically possible for a hypothetical situation to arise in which it would be justified or reasonable.
Neither do I imply that every man, or even most men, are "evil." But there are situations built in to all our cultures that make some women, perhaps even children, "fair game."
All one has to do is listen to people, both male and female, when confronted with actual situations involving actual people.
"Dressed like that? She was just asking for it."
"Women love being with dominant men."
"What do you expect? Those people are like animals."
"She secretly wanted it."
"Women say no, but they mean yes."
"She should have known better than to go to that part of town/be out after dark/go to a frat party."
"She enjoyed it, once I got started."
"It was an accident. I was drunk. I didn't mean for it to happen."
"She probably led him on."
"It's not as if she was a virgin... What's the big deal?"
"She went up to his room, so she knew what she was getting into."
"It wouldn't have happened if *she* hadn't been drunk/stoned/careless."
"She didn't have a mark on her, so she obviously didn't fight back, and probably enjoyed it."
"She was acting like a slut, so why should the guy be punished for responding as if she were?"
"She's just feeling guilty on the morning after, and wants to punish the man because he didn't call."
"She's just a little tramp/gold-digger."
"He's so rich/handsome/famous that women throw themselves at him all the time, so he doesn't need to rape anyone."
"He's the real victim here, because his life could be destroyed."
We have a long history of believing, on a very deep level, that men are "better" or "more important" than women, that at least some women "belong" to some men. It's hard to change those perceptions.
We see that rape, or complicity in rape, becomes widely practised and accepted, or ignored, in warfare, for example, so one can easily point to instances in which large companies of men rape "enemy" women, or take advantage of prostitutes, most of whom have been coerced into providing sexual access to strangers, or tolerate brothels in the name of "freedom." It's quite common for armies to provide "comfort women," whores, and easy access to alcohol and sometimes other drugs when the men are off duty.
Any situation in which one group of humans "dehumanise" another leads to murder, rape, and all sorts of brutal oppression.
-----------
U.S. servicewomen today are more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire. At some Veterans Affairs hospitals, over 40 percent of female patients report having been sexually assaulted during their service, and almost one-third are survivors of rape.
Here in the States, a 2006 investigation by the Associated Press found that more than 100 high school-aged women were sexually assaulted or raped by male military recruiters. "Women were raped on recruiting office couches, assaulted in government cars and groped en route to entrance exams," the AP reported. Many recruiters found guilty of sexually assaulting women faced only administrative punishments, while a recruiter who molested teenage boys was sentenced to 12 years in prison.
-----------
In November, Specialist James Barker, 24, admitted rape and murder over the killings and was jailed for 90 years.
Cortez broke down as he confessed to raping the girl as her parents and sister were shot dead in another room.
According to the plea agreement, Cortez admitted conspiring with three other soldiers, Private First Class Jesse Spielman, Specialist Barker and Steven Green, a now discharged soldier, to rape Abeer Qassim al-Janabi.
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The fact is that *most* men under severe stress will respond with increased levels of "fight or flight" hormones that can cause them to do lots of things they'd never think of doing when relaxing at home, and that increased aggression and anger can make them act in ways that their friends and family don't even recognise as part of their normal selves.
Most women, on the other hand, react to stress by emotional distress, crying, seeking comfort or help, and so on.
Frightened men clench their fists.
Frightened women cry or scream.
That's the way we're built.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Women Say ALL those things
About other women, as well as men saying them. The issue isn't what men under stress/duress do or don't do...the point is NORMAL men on a day to day basis are NO worse than women.
A LOT of women have the so-called rape fantasy when they are "taken" forcibly by a HOT guy and then...
I do believe historically RELIGION has elevated men over women, I'll grant you that. At least the religions from the children of Abraham. I think that is on the wane though..at least I hope it is.
Hugs
Frank
Without going into detail...
No, it's not. There are many who are nostalgic for ancient certitudes.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
EVIL exists without regard to religion
RAMI
Evil exits without regard to religion.
If you do not think that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, or Joe Stalin and the Gulag or Pol Pot and his regime or what is currently going on in Dafur are evil on their own, with or without a religious context or background defining evil, I would like you to justify your failure to classify them as such. "Cruel, selfish, thoughtless, contemptuous of other human beings, morally obtuse, hateful" are not sufficient explanations.
RAMI
RAMI
I didn't actually mention men...
...specifically in my blog. My disgust was that there were women who were capable of perpetrating such outrages. The sad fact is that many of them get away with it.
With regard to TG fiction being demeaning of men or depicting them as lesser life forms, I hope my contributions don't do that. My good and bad characters may be male or female or tg. Recently, the villains have been women, but I'm no misogynist nor am I a misanthrope.
I believe that most of the people on this planet are neutral, neither good nor bad. There are some good people and there are some who I would consider to be nasty. The categories are not rigid, people move in and out of them, and they are not gender specific. I also try to believe that no one is irredeemable and that the action isn't necessarily the person. Sometimes that is so hard to maintain. Persons who prey upon the vulnerable are dispicable. Today, a 20 year old man was charged with killing an old lady, every bone in her face had been broken. That level of violence is unnecessary and indefensible.
Angharad
Angharad
That's absolutely correct you didn't mention men
I brought up men in response to the "as a woman.." part of the post. I was just trying to say that men aren't inherently worse than women...seems we agree about most people being neutral :)
Huggles
Frank
On the Flaws of Men and Women
I should have posted the following here, it looks like. :)
Why talk exclusively of our supposed faults, when the truth is that there is so much more about men and women to celebrate? Each have strengths and weaknesses, but ultimately, each sex is splendid in its own way, and together, we are more than the sum of our parts. Concentrating on the negative, I think, too often leads to rounds of accusation and counter-accusation, which ultimately poisons society and relationships.
Men and women are not the same, and should not be ashamed to be themselves:
Aishwara Rai
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi