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With the advent of the first BC V-1 a thought occurs. Recently, I have been working with an author on a re-write and an issue arose regarding comma use.
I had recommended the grammatical use of the comma in a specific application. The author used the comma as a pause indicator in dialog. When I responded to the author, I brought out the issue, but left the final decision on usage to him.
In re-reading one of the candidates for volume one it occurred to me that we have multiple concepts on some of the basics of the writing craft. Language is fluid... it changes over time. One only need to look at literature from past centuries to note them.
In the writing field there are numerous 'manuals of style', books that give direction of when and how to use words and punctuation. We could construct our own manual of style for BC V-1, adopt an existing manual, or just free-style it.
As a volunteer to the staff, I want to be able to be an effective contributor and I feel that guidelines will be very useful.
All that being said, I feel that discussion and input from authors and readers is very important to this process.
But then, this is just my own opinion.
What's yours?
Janet
Comments
One problem:
Differing national styles.
Punctuation in the UK, for example, is different than the way people punctuate in the US and other countries have their own national styles. Writing "Mr Weatherbee" without a period after Mr would be wrong by most standards in the US but is acceptable style in UK publications. American use of antique past participles, sometimes sets British teeth on edge and reciprocal feelings are engaged by UK use of "whilst" instead of "while". :)
So, I'm not sure a single BC style book would be appropriate. What I think we should aim for in the book is a non-exceptional style that preserves our amateur and international origins. In this case, "good enough" is actually optimal.
That's not to say that a series of style suggestions that keep these factors in mind is not a good idea, I think it is. It just can't be a three-piece suit or evening formal of a standard, more like beach wear or Casual Friday. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I have to slightly disagree ...
The use of a full stop (a.k.a. period) is not restricted to the ending of a sentence. It also indicates an abbreviation. And in the UK - so I was taught, quite forcibly sometimes - the words Mr. Mrs. and Ms., Dr., Prof., and so on are abbreviations and thus MUST have a full stop following them. The word Miss is NOT considered an abbreviation and therefore does not require a full stop.
For you to state that Mr is acceptable in the UK but not in the US is misleading. I do NOT find it acceptable. Nor have I seen it as a widely used practice.
However, I'm quite prepared to believe that standards have slipped sufficiently nowadays that laziness by authors has become 'accepted practice'.
There are 2 of us who live in this house-share, and we share this computer, and we both are in agreement on this matter as well, so we share our views as it were....
The usage of commas in German, for example, is very different to that of English speakers, and there is a very heavy German influence in American english, both spoken and written.
I do not claim to be perfectly right on every single occasion but I know I am on most!
Being fairly new to this site, I appreciate it very much for all that it offers, and I do try to contribute positively.
On the whole, I have very few negatives, but it seems to go in phases - a whole bunch of wrong grammar, or nonsense sentences, or using an apostrophe instead of a plural (and vice-versa), or wrong capitalisation will appear like a tidal wave. A friendly user quietly mentioned to me in a PM (before I even knew what a PM was) that it is not the done thing here to point out these errors in public comments, which is kinda self-defeating as it means that only good comments get posted, thus reducing the value of them to those in the know.
I seem to have wandered from my point, so shall stop there.
I thank you all for providing this environment
Julia
British usage of full stops in abbreviations...
...is inconsistent, but there are rules. In the very common abbreviations, especially those which end in the final letter of the abbreviation itself, it's fairly common to see "Mr Evans," or "Mrs Jones," for ensample. The UK editions of the Harry Potter books, for example, exhibit this behaviour. Likewise, the UK editions of Susanna Kearsley's excellent romance/whatever novels (any one of which I'd highly recommend) do the same. One presumes that these books conform to some sort of style guide, and one could, I think, easily find more. (I would except I'd have to do more work than I care to do, since I don't instantly recall which of my books came from whence) One sees the same usage in some US writers, with the distinction (if any) being between abbreviations (words lopped off at the end, like "Prof." for Professor) and contractions (words with the middle excised, like "Mr" for Mister).
In the case of Mister, one can't even readily determine what's being left out, since one common practise with contractions is to use an apostrophe, so one could as easily think of "Mr" as simply lacking the apostrophe one might find in "M'r" except that one doesn't, as a rule.
At least in the case of "Mrs," it's difficult to describe it as an abbreviation in the first place, as it abbreviates (or contracts) a word no longer in daily use. One might call it a meme with variable pronunciations. One supposes that it were possible to use it still as the proper abbreviation of Mistress, as Mrs Masham's Repose, by T. H. White, but one would have to put up with quibbles from the literal-minded.
There's a nice article in Wikipedia which discusses the issue here:
Full stops and Spaces
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Writing Style
I would recommend if you're a Yank, you use a standard style manual, such as the Chicago Manual of Style or the Webster Standard American Style Manual.
If you're on the other side of the Pond, use an appropriate standardized style manual.
And if you're Irish, well, you're a creative lot. Feel free to do whatever your little heart desires. You're gonna do it anyway.
Just don't go inventing a whole new style that is useful here but no where else. Any writer who eventually moves on will have a serious handicap elsewhere if a unique style applicable to this site only is adopted and becomes their default style.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
Oh Wow!
I must be Irish! Faith and Beggorrah!
Wren
Style? Me?
Good question...
In general - the various "style books" are good - as far as they go. BUT, they make some assumptions.
IMO - as long as an author is consistent and doesn't use some style that is REALLY different from what one "generally" sees here, it's probably okay.
Why? Several reasons, actually.
1) Flexibility is one of the high points here at BCTS. Requirements to RIGIDLY follow a style guide is counter to that.
2) Time... Unless you live/breath the style guide, odds are your writing diverged at least a little... It takes TIME for someone to "pull" a story back in line with any guide. How much, depends on how far the divergence is.
3) Style is just that "Style". And a Style GUIDE is just that a GUIDE not a rule. There ARE valid reasons to diverge from a style guide - perhaps the author's "ahead" of the style curve? Or, perhaps the author just doesn't want to be there.
4) There are bits in both the US guides mentioned that I do not like... I think they get in the way of readability. (But, that's ME. Others can and do disagree!) And, I believe a big part of the site is "reading".
Just my thoughts on the issue.
Anne
Styles can vary even within the same tradition
There are more than one tradition where there are two alternative ways of doing the same thing. British English editing traditions places a full stop within the quotes if it is indeed part of the quotation but it is to be placed either outside them if it's explicitly terminating the outside sentence and not the contained quote. But the practice is discouraged by many publishing houses who have adopted the American style. And the standard is different in fiction and non-fiction.
Many European countries has the speech bar way of marking dialogue, (primarily) in fiction, that is the same type of speech marking as I used in Leaving Mars, in some of them it is even the recommended style. In Swedish it was long the recommended way of doing dialogue, with quotation marks only being used for exact citations, but English influences have been gradually taking over here. James Joyce is known for having to struggle with his publishers to get them to release his works with this his preferred style of dialogue.
I think that Nancy has it about right
I have written stories that take place in the UK, the USA and Australia. I try to be grammatically correct for each country and will usually run my writing by an editor who lives in that country.
Then, of course, there are regional differences (dialects?) and different social upbringing.... and don't forget Scotland, Ireland and Wales.
If you think it's difficult in the UK, then it must be much more challenging in somewhere considerably larger, like the USA.
Certainly there are many similarities, but there are also a significant number of differences.
I find the whole subject of grammar and punctuation fascinating; it's one of the joys I derive from writing. I've learned more about our language than ever I did at school.
S.
Hmmm
I am writing in my second language, for starters.....
English as a Second Language
Don't tell me, you're like Lloyd George who Welshed on his friends until he learned English.
Nancy Cole
Note: The term 'Welshing on your friends' was coined in the 19th Century when the English were attempting to eradicate the Welsh language. If a child were foolish enough to speak his native tongue in class, a wooden sign was hung about his neck saying to the effect he was 'Welshing.' The success of this effort can be witnessed today by the inability of 95% of the population of Wales to understand a lick of Welsh. Heck, my great granddad was a Jones who slipped into the US when no one was watching and I'll be darned if I can pronounce the names of most Welsh towns and cities. (Can anyone?)
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
Welshing or "to Welsh"
The most common verb meaning is to swindle or cheat, especially by refusing to pay a debt, or by going back on one's word. In this sense it's an offensive racial slur, something like "gyp," from Gypsy, which carries much of the same meaning. It plays on a common stereotype of the Welsh as double dealers and backstabbers.
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Ummm, style??
Let's see. My knowledge of grammar and stuff is basically down to one diligent 5th grade teacher, old school. So I tend to the mid 20th English style. She gave up on my calligraphy and no doubt I err at times to make her cringe were she watching my grammar, but I'm generally okay... I think. Do I stuff up? Probably, depending on how anal one is in such matters maybe. It's likely I make mistakes I am blissfully ignorant of. So be it. I also try to make, speech especially, flow and feel real and I am very sure few even educated types speak proper like as a general rule. Some do I admit, which usually makes them seem like arrogant pompous pedants. Then sometimes peoples use of language makes me cringe, Ce la Vie... I can pedant too if I wants to. Plus language is often situational, we speak differently in different environments. An email I send to a friend will not be the same as a letter to an employer or...
So it's a fluid thing and correct is... somewhere out there. I'd probably have fun were I a grocer. Oh, hang on, was that apostrophe's'?
Kristina
Linguistically
That sort of thing is called 'register', and we all use (or should use) different registers for different situations. Kristina has hitthe nail squarely with her comment about reported speech. I try to write it as I hear it, so it can be a pile of crap grammatically. It sends my spellchecker to rehab every month.